Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Hot Spring Spas => Topic started by: outdoorfan on January 19, 2020, 11:45:40 pm
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Talking to Caldera and Hot Springs dealers about these two systems.
The Caldera dealer is all about the ozone and talks badly about Freshwater salt.
The Hot Springs dealer is all about the Freshwater salt system and talks badly about ozone.
How to cut through the opinions and bias and actually decide on which is better?
Additionally, on the Caldera and Hot Springs sites, they only mention the freshwater salt system and don't even mention ozone. So what comes "standard" if anything? And how much should one be paying "extra" for one or the other?
I have a quote from the Caldera dealer with "24 hour PureWater sanitizing system with ozone, regular price $795" which is "included for free" and a quote from the Hot Springs dealer with "Freshwater Salt System Start - up Kit NXT/LL 2019 - $499", also just included in their quote/price. But is that the system or just some kit to use with the system that's built in?
I'm looking for the lower maintenance, low odor/chem option. I assume most people want the same thing. Maybe there is no such thing. And they both are a PITA, expensive and I'm just getting the various marketing lines about how much better one or the other is.
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So I hear mixed results about the salt systems. It's a bit difficult to read reviews about the Freshwater Salt system because that system is so new. It's an upgrade from the original ACE salt system which had issues (mainly that the ACE cell was designed to last three years, but due to improper user operation, they were lasting 18 months to a year before needing an expensive replacement).
Some people have the salt system and love it, others have nothing but problems with them (and many of them love to complain online about how terrible the ACE system is). Unlike ozonator systems, a Salt system needs to be properly balanced before the salt cell can take over - this means adding a lot of bleach to the system initially and testing regularly until the salt system is producing adequate chlorine to keep the water sanitized. Another problem is that not all tap water is the same - and the salt system's effectiveness is based on water hardness and phosphate levels - if you have very hard water or phosphates it's going be very very difficult to get the water balanced (not impossible, but more of a PITA). Once things get balanced it's supposedly a nice system and very easy to maintain, but that's not the impression I get from customers so far - initial balancing can take weeks of trial and error for some users.
To me, it seems more like a gimmick from a large manufacturer, making a proprietary in-line titanium "cell" which requires replacement every four months. There's currently no other manufacturer in the world for this item, so you're stuck with them and their pricey titanium cell.
Ozonators are a much more traditional method of sanitation. Tried and tested, proven effective. The biggest downside to ozonators that I see is that they need to be replaced every few years when they wear out, and that you need a circulation pump to keep water flowing past the ozonator for optimal performance (which adds another wear and tear item that needs to be replaced every few years as well).
My dealer loathed the original ACE salt system - they wanted satisfied customers and the ACE system was nothing but trouble. Years ago HS apparently demanded my dealer start selling the ACE system years ago and my dealer told them to piss off - they refused. After more than a year of testing the new Freshwater salt system - they are comfortable selling it to some customers, although they still prefer ozonators to salt systems.
I've got a 2019 HS Jetsetter which has the Freshwater salt system capability, but I opted for the traditional ozonator. Maybe when my ozonator fails I'll give the Freshwater salt system a chance and see how it goes for a year or two, but I'm perfectly satisfied with the care routine that my dealer has for me: add half a teaspoon of dichlor (per user per 30 minutes), and test the PH monthly (add baking soda when it's low). Otherwise wash the filters once a month and that's basically all the maintenance I need to do with my spa.
And my skin doesn't reek of chlorine after getting out. I can jump right in bed without having to shower after soaking which is nice.
Note these are just the opinions as a customer with limited experience - I'm not a spa technician or dealer.
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I sell both brands.
Both FreshWater Salt and FreshWater Ozone are options that are installed by your dealer. Both brands believe that FreshWater Salt is the future and therefore it is at the forefront of the marketing. Hot Spring has been offering salt water since 2009 I believe and Caldera has had the option since 2019. Your Caldera dealer likely has much more familiarity with ozone than salt which might be their reason for preferring it.
These are really two completely different systems.
The ozone system works really well. If you use it in conjunction with either the FreshWater or Monarch silver cartridge, then you have a low chlorine system where you add MPS (non-chlorine shock) with each use and chlorine weekly or as needed.
FreshWater salt is not technically a low chlorine system, it is basically a chlorine generator. The idea is that once the system is up and running it will provide a better soaking experience that is less needy than regular chlorine.
Neither will probably be a PITA unless you make then out to be. FreshWater Salt in my opinion kind of forces you to do what you should already be doing and that is actually take care of your water. I think this applies to any salt system, pool or spa. If you actually balance and take care of your water, the results will be much better vs if you don't. With the ozone system, if you have water quality issues, its on you and only you because you are adding anything and everything yourself instead of relying on a component.
My guess with those quotes, it is the price of the ozone/salt and then the accompanying water care products. Again, neither are installed by default from the factory.
If you want lower odor and likely lower maintenance, I would go with saltwater. If you want something tried and true but requires a more hands on approach, then go ozone. FWIW, on salt compatible hot tubs in 2019, I sold salt on 90% and ozone on 10%.
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Thanks both for the replies. I'm not sure I'm anymore convinced of either yet though. :)
1. On the Salt system, it sounds like it could take several days/weeks before the water is balanced? And that's for each time you drain and fill it? That doesn't sound fun, unless I'm misunderstanding. Are you not using the hot tub for the first several days or week(s) while you sort this out? What does the initial treatment look like? Bags of salt and then incremental changes with supplemental chems? With an ozonator, do you just get it and turn on and you're in the tub the first night?
2. Mention of using ozonator *with* a freshwater or monarch silver cartridge. What's that? I thought the ozonator is simply turn on and shock daily/weekly with very light chems to balance. Is it more complex than that? What are these silver cartridges? Where do they go? How much are they? No dealer has mentioned combining ozonator with anything else yet.
3. I understand the salt system is really just converting to chlorine, but given that's the backbone of the salt system, I assume there'd be more chlorine in the water at all times causing more odor and possible irritation where the ozone system is simply using ozone alone as the backbone to sanitize the water with a little help from dichlor now and then.
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Thanks both for the replies. I'm not sure I'm anymore convinced of either yet though. :)
1. On the Salt system, it sounds like it could take several days/weeks before the water is balanced? And that's for each time you drain and fill it? That doesn't sound fun, unless I'm misunderstanding. Are you not using the hot tub for the first several days or week(s) while you sort this out? What does the initial treatment look like? Bags of salt and then incremental changes with supplemental chems? With an ozonator, do you just get it and turn on and you're in the tub the first night?
2. Mention of using ozonator *with* a freshwater or monarch silver cartridge. What's that? I thought the ozonator is simply turn on and shock daily/weekly with very light chems to balance. Is it more complex than that? What are these silver cartridges? Where do they go? How much are they? No dealer has mentioned combining ozonator with anything else yet.
3. I understand the salt system is really just converting to chlorine, but given that's the backbone of the salt system, I assume there'd be more chlorine in the water at all times causing more odor and possible irritation where the ozone system is simply using ozone alone as the backbone to sanitize the water with a little help from dichlor now and then.
I'm not sure who is telling you these things you mentioned above but the reality is the chlorine is going to do the sanitizing, plain and simple. The ozonator is a nice add to a chlorine system to help you maintain clean water IMO but it won't reduce the chems too much and make no mistake, the chlorine is the "backbone" of the system (to use your phraseology), not the ozonator!
You're looking at choosing between a simple, manual chlorine system with some help from an ozonator or a salt system that creates/maintains it own chlorine level. Either system is fine but if anyone is trying to sell you on a system with the ozonator doing most of the work then they're either uneducated on hot tub water care or they're using salesmanship to tell you what they think you want to hear.
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I'm not sure who is telling you these things you mentioned above but the reality is the chlorine is going to do the sanitizing, plain and simple. The ozonator is a nice add to a chlorine system to help you maintain clean water IMO but it won't reduce the chems too much and make no mistake, the chlorine is the "backbone" of the system (to use your phraseology), not the ozonator!
You're looking at choosing between a simple, manual chlorine system with some help from an ozonator or a salt system that creates/maintains it own chlorine level. Either system is fine but if anyone is trying to sell you on a system with the ozonator doing most of the work then they're either uneducated on hot tub water care or they're using salesmanship to tell you what they think you want to hear.
Got it. My assumptions on the ozonator is based on conversations I've had with dealers and with ratchett's comments above. But I'm just learning here. If the ozonator is just a supplement to a chlorine (direct or salt derived), then it hardly seems worth adding that component at all.
On the other hand, this site https://www.loveyourhottub.com/better-water-blog/salt-or-ozone/ (https://www.loveyourhottub.com/better-water-blog/salt-or-ozone/) seems to indicate an overall lower requirement for chlorine concentrations with ozone vs salt system (.5-1 PPM vs 3-5 PPM) which seems good if one is trying to avoid chlorine.
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I'm not sure who is telling you these things you mentioned above but the reality is the chlorine is going to do the sanitizing, plain and simple. The ozonator is a nice add to a chlorine system to help you maintain clean water IMO but it won't reduce the chems too much and make no mistake, the chlorine is the "backbone" of the system (to use your phraseology), not the ozonator!
You're looking at choosing between a simple, manual chlorine system with some help from an ozonator or a salt system that creates/maintains it own chlorine level. Either system is fine but if anyone is trying to sell you on a system with the ozonator doing most of the work then they're either uneducated on hot tub water care or they're using salesmanship to tell you what they think you want to hear.
Got it. My assumptions on the ozonator is based on conversations I've had with dealers and with ratchett's comments above. But I'm just learning here. If the ozonator is just a supplement to a chlorine (direct or salt derived), then it hardly seems worth adding that component at all.
On the other hand, this site https://www.loveyourhottub.com/better-water-blog/salt-or-ozone/ (https://www.loveyourhottub.com/better-water-blog/salt-or-ozone/) seems to indicate an overall lower requirement for chlorine concentrations with ozone vs salt system (.5-1 PPM vs 3-5 PPM) which seems good if one is trying to avoid chlorine.
If you look at that website you will see they sell ozone systems but not salt systems. That’s most likely why they push ozone
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If you look at that website you will see they sell ozone systems but not salt systems. That’s most likely why they push ozone
Absolutely. Everyone's got their agenda. I'm trying to cut through that and understand the true differences.
One of the best ways to do that is with math or numbers. Do you know if the chlorine concentration numbers mentioned on that site for ozone vs salt system (.5-1 PPM vs 3-5 PPM) are accurate? If so, that seems like a pretty big difference and could possibly make the difference for odor and skin sensitivities.
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If you look at that website you will see they sell ozone systems but not salt systems. That’s most likely why they push ozone
Absolutely. Everyone's got their agenda. I'm trying to cut through that and understand the true differences.
One of the best ways to do that is with math or numbers. Do you know if the chlorine concentration numbers mentioned on that site for ozone vs salt system (.5-1 PPM vs 3-5 PPM) are accurate? If so, that seems like a pretty big difference and could possibly make the difference for odor and skin sensitivities.
I would think you would need to keep about the same levels either way. Ozone will also oxidize chlorine so you in theory would need to add more to keep a residual level. I have a Fresh water salt system on my personal tub. I keep the chlorine level right around 3.
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If you look at that website you will see they sell ozone systems but not salt systems. That’s most likely why they push ozone
Absolutely. Everyone's got their agenda. I'm trying to cut through that and understand the true differences.
One of the best ways to do that is with math or numbers. Do you know if the chlorine concentration numbers mentioned on that site for ozone vs salt system (.5-1 PPM vs 3-5 PPM) are accurate? If so, that seems like a pretty big difference and could possibly make the difference for odor and skin sensitivities.
I think ozone will improve your chances of keeping the water clean/clear and lessen the chance of frustration so I like it for that reason but where did those numbers come from? I don't think there is a difference, you need to raise the chlorine level to the same point either way from what I know (not my real area of expertise).
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Whether you use ozone or salt, you should still maintain a 3-5 ppm of chlorine. When you add mineral cartridge then you can drop your chlorine to 0.5-1.0 ppm.
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Whether you use ozone or salt, you should still maintain a 3-5 ppm of chlorine. When you add mineral cartridge then you can drop your chlorine to 0.5-1.0 ppm.
Is that the silver Ion cartridge that gets replaced every four months? Can that be used with Freshwater salt system?
Doesn't someone on this group run both the Freshwater salt system and an ozonator?
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Yes on the silver ion. It is recommended by Hot Spring that you use it in conjunction with FreshWater Salt.
D00nut on here sells ozone with salt and has very good results.
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Whether you use ozone or salt, you should still maintain a 3-5 ppm of chlorine. When you add mineral cartridge then you can drop your chlorine to 0.5-1.0 ppm.
Yeah I've specifically seen people struggle with water care using silver cartridges (and ozone) at that lower 1.0 ppm level who needed to raise the chlorine level so that seems like a marketing number from the silver guys. Have you seen people able to maintain good water care at those low levels? I used silver and ozone to good results in my own spa but didn't really lower the chlorine levels, I see them as an aid to avoid issues avoiding water care frustration. Besides, I always just added the chlorine granules AFTER I exited the tub and the chlorine levels subsided by the time I got back in anyway so I never really had a desire to lower the chlorine level.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I'm not sure I'm any more convinced by either one, but I think I'm leaning toward the Salt system.
If one ultimately needs to keep the levels at 3PPM anyway and with the ozonator, I'll be fighting to maintain that because it's oxidizing whatever you put into the water, maybe the Freshwater Salt is the least upkeep? Do you just do the initial boostrapping of the system with pounds of salt and then dial up or down the PPM using the digital control?
I'd rather not have to add chemicals 1) every time I use it and tailor that for how many people and for how long and whether or not my 7 year old showered first (Spoiler: he won't) 2) Keeping up with the ozonator oxidizing whatever I put in and having different readings hours after I get it to 3PPM.
It seems like the Saltwater system will let me check and adjust once a week vs. once a day with the ozonator?
Is that folks experience who have the Salt system and use it most days of the week? Or are you still checking/adjusting daily?
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I probably check my salt tub every 10 days to a couple of weeks. When I was using spa frog/ozone I checked it maybe 1-2 times a week. Had to add a bit more chemicals with spa frog/ozone. With salt I add a little liquid chlorine here and there and a bit of ph down here and there
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It seems like the Saltwater system will let me check and adjust once a week vs. once a day with the ozonator?
I know you were asking for more info from saltwater users but just to clarify....
I just follow the instructions from my dealer. I was told to not bother testing chlorine levels with my setup - in fact they offered to throw away the chlorine drop test included with the PH testing kit.
I only perform one test once per month - measuring PH, and that's it.
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I run ozone with it as well. I personally love salt and I have a lot of customers that love it as well. I will say the jury is out on the "Freshwater System"(cartridge). I cant really give a truly educated opinion until it has been in the field longer. We actually run ozone with our Freshwater system which HS actually advises against doing. A couple of bigger dealers like us are doing that too from what I understand. What I can say is that I have had almost zero phone calls about water issues this entire year of selling it heavy. Almost every limelight and highlife we have sold this year out of my location has salt.We all own spas that run salt in my store so that definitely factors into that. I have customers who are running the cartridge well past 5 months with zero issues. The shortest life we have seen is around 3 months. I was almost shocked at how many people are still on the first cartridge. We do run a lower level on them because of the ozone so we really get the life out of the cartridge. A lot of dealers talk about lockout and phosphate issues but knock on wood we have not run into anything on that as of yet. I would be curious to hear more dealer feedback on their experience.
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This is one of those personal prefences.
I run a salt clorinator on my pool and ozone on my hot tub. In the end if you other water chemestry is good, both systems will be just fine.
For BOTH look at the long term cost of ownership. What is the cost to replace the Ozone or Salt system? How long do each typicaly last? Also and very importantly can you use 3rd party replacement parts?
I've found that Watkins like a lot of companies can be just evil on replacemetn parts cost if there is not a competitor keeping them honest.
For me I run Ozone, almost bought a new hot tub this year and was planning on sticking with Ozone as the OE replacement costs for Salt was pretty high. Ozone generators from Watkins are also expensive, yet I run a simple 3rd partry Ozone generaor (that's $99 from Amazon) They seem to work as well as the OE as my water is always crystal clear.
Keeping a jar of shock near the tub and putting in a few oz once a week or so not an issue. I don't put it in all the time - but doing so only takes a few seconds.
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I'm not sure I'm any more convinced by either one, but I think I'm leaning toward the Salt system.
What did you decide in the end? My thoughts and questions are exactly the same as yours. I’m so stuck on whether to go with saltwater system or not.
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I’m so stuck on whether to go with saltwater system or not.
If it helps make up your mind one way or another, ask your dealer for a price on the replacement Freshwater Salt cell cartridges. You'll need three per year.
The Freshwater Salt cartridge is a proprietary part only available from Watkins for Hotspring and Caldera tubs. Since it only came out two years ago, there is still no online market for these replacement cartridges. The few vendors I found online were charging the same price as the local dealer, although recently I noticed all these online vendors have replaced the price with a "Call for Pricing" message, so I don't know what that's all about (maybe short supply? Maybe Watkins doesn't want online vendors selling these replacement parts).
Six months on my ozonator/dichlor setup and perfectly content (Silver mineral cartridge in the main filter). I add a teaspoon of dichlor after every soak (per 30 minutes), and add baking soda when the PH gets low (testing monthly). That's basically it for my care/maintenance aside from washing/rotating the filters