Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: brian_tr on May 16, 2009, 09:19:27 am
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I changed water yesterday in my sundance cameo. I was trying to follow Nitro's method of lowering TA. I was a little afraid of adding to much acid at one time after I started. I started with one cup 31.45% muriatic acid. Ran jets and air for 30 minutes. Then did four more cycles with 1/2 cup of acid each which puts me at 3 cups of acid. My TA is reading about 160 and ph still off scale. I did not have any calcium so I have not added yet. My water is very soft. I will go get some before I continue today. Will adding the Calcium change the TA? Should I just take the TA reading I get at the spa store to calulate how much more acid to add? I am going to try the Silken this time. Once water is balanced I will add.
I am also switching to the 488 filter and doing away with the micro clean.
Just read about Silken and looks like it raises your ph quite a bit. Dont think I need that right now. I think it is the only product with Borates at my store.
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Interesting about the filter - we are selling a good number of the replacement filters to get rid of the micro thingy. Seems to be working fine.
8-)
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Got back from store. TA 188, PH 8.7, CH 35. They have two kinds of shock. They are SpaGuard chemicals. One is Enhanced Shock and one is Oxidizer. I am guessing its the Oxidizer I need. Has anyone tried the Silken? I will get my hardness up and then start bringing the TA down some more.
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Hi Brian,
Your TA is still too high, and needs to lowered. Just continue the process, and remember to taper off acid additions as you get closer to your target TA.
Also, I definitely recommend getting a good drop test kit (such the Taylor K-2006), so you don't have to run to the spa store everytime you want to test your water. Especially when your balancing your water.
Regarding the shock. If you are going to follow the Dichlor/Bleach method, you need Dichlor (ie Chlorine Granules). SpaGuard calls it "Chlorine Concentrate". The Oxidizer I assume is MPS (non-chlorine shock) and not the same thing. They also have a "Shock" with a little Chlorine, but I would stick with Chlorine Concentrate (aka Dichlor).
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I am bring TA down. Im at almost 4 cups acid now. I have a good test kit just like to compare readings with theirs once in a while. I still have not decide to stay with Dichlor or try bleach yet. I had understood is still good to shock with MPS once in a while. I think I had been adding too much dichlor before figuring it was better to add to much than not enough but forgot about CYA. I will check readings more this time and try shocking a little less.
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I am bring TA down. Im at almost 4 cups acid now. I have a good test kit just like to compare readings with theirs once in a while.
A day to lower TA is much better than weeks, isn't it? Next time you'll get it down in half a day. ;)
I still have not decide to stay with Dichlor or try bleach yet. I had understood is still good to shock with MPS once in a while. I think I had been adding too much dichlor before figuring it was better to add to much than not enough but forgot about CYA. I will check readings more this time and try shocking a little less.
MPS is ok to use along with Chlorine. Especially during high bather loads. I was thinking you were asking about it as your primary sanitizer.
It's up to you of whether to use the Dichlor/Bleach method, but at least now you know the effects of CYA. Don't think of the Dichlor/Bleach method as all or nothing. You can use it for a while, and if you don't like it, you can always switch back to Dichlor.
Also, you can use things to help out the Chlorine, (limiting the need for Dichlor), such as MPS, Nature2, Ozonator etc. You can even use Dichlor regularly, and shock with bleach once a week. That will help limit the use of Dichlor.
The bottom line is: if you limit the use of Dichlor (by any means), your water will last longer.
Keep us posted.
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Thanks for the help. Right now I'm getting TA 50 and ph about 7.8. Will check and adjust accordingly. Will decide on bleach or Dichlor when CYA is at 30.
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Excellent!
Just remember, using Dichlor is slightly acidic, so if you continue to use it over time you'll need to raise your TA by adding Baking Soda. Just keep an eye on your pH, so you'll know if it gets too low (< 7.4).
Keep us updated.
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Excellent!
Just remember, using Dichlor is slightly acidic, so if you continue to use it over time you'll need to raise your TA by adding Baking Soda. Just keep an eye on your pH, so you'll know if it gets too low (< 7.4).
Keep us updated.
I am confused. How is TA of 50 excellent?
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Checked this morning and ph was 7.5. Alls well. This was the easest I have ever balanced water. Took over 4 cups of acid but never got ph to low to hurt anything. Think I am going to go ahead and try Silken which will raise my ph again but should get it right back in again.
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I am confused. How is TA of 50 excellent?
Because his pH is 7.5, AND the fact he just lowered his TA from over 400 ppm to 50 in a day. Before it was taking him weeks. I'd say that is excellent. Wouldn't you?
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Checked this morning and ph was 7.5. Alls well. This was the easest I have ever balanced water. Took over 4 cups of acid but never got ph to low to hurt anything. Think I am going to go ahead and try Silken which will raise my ph again but should get it right back in again.
I'm not familiar with all the ingredients in Silken, so use it at your own risk. I don't think it's pH balanced, so you may need to add Acid to counteract it. For the price, you'd think they would make it pH balanced. Just keep an eye on your pH, and let us know how it works out.
FYI, the cheapest way to add Borates is to use 20 Mule Team (Borax) and Acid. The easiest way is to use a product called Gentle Spa, which is pH Balanced.
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I am confused. How is TA of 50 excellent?
Assuming your question is about how a low TA is good, you need to remember that the primary SOURCE of rising pH is carbonates (in particular, dissolved carbon dioxide) in the water and that is measured by TA. If you are going to use a net pH neutral source of chlorine, such as bleach or lithium hypochlorite, then you want the TA to be fairly low to minimize the pH rise. If, on the other hand, you use a net acidic source of chlorine such as Dichlor, then you want the TA higher to balance this acidity to keep the pH fairly constant or only slightly decreasing (though the TA will slowly drop over time requiring baking soda to bring it back up).
This is similar to pools where the standard recommendation is 80-100 ppm for hypochlorite sources of chlorine and 100-120 ppm for other sources of chlorine including Trichlor and Dichlor. Spas have a lot more aeration than pools and are at hotter temperatures so the rate of outgassing is quite a bit faster, so an even lower TA for hypochlorite sources of chlorine is desired. If one wants more pH buffering, then one can add 50 ppm Borates to the water since that is a pH buffer that does not cause a rise in pH over time.
Richard
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I like to get my chemicals from local dealer when possible. Silken (Sodium Teraborate Petahydrate 100% ) is the only thing that came up on search for Spa Guard Chemicals that said borates is why I thought about trying it but maybe I will just order Gental Spa on line.
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I like to get my chemicals from local dealer when possible. Silken (Sodium Teraborate Petahydrate 100% ) is the only thing that came up on search for Spa Guard Chemicals that said borates is why I thought about trying it but maybe I will just order Gental Spa on line.
As you point out, SpaGuard Silken, according to the MSDS (http://www.pools.com/catalog/SpaGuard_BioGuard_Chemicals-911-14276.html#), is 100% Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate. This will not just add borates to the water, but will raise the pH significantly as well. You would need to add acid along with this product so if you were going to do that then you could just as well use 20 Mule Team Borax (Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate) though the Silken product is pretty darn cheap. You can see from the instructions here (http://www.poolgeek.com/SpaGuard-Spa-Silken-P2456.aspx) that they say it will raise the pH and that you will need to add acid. Their dosage for the acid is incorrect. If they are using volumes, then the 10 ounces volume of their product would need 6.4 ounces volume of dry acid, not 5 -- perhaps their product density is very different than normal. The dosage amount they give adds around 65 ppm Borates.
With the ProTeam Gentle Spa, this is pH neutral so no acid is needed. The dosage they give adds around 35 ppm Borates so you can scale this up somewhat to get to 50 ppm.
Richard
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I called another dealer from a near by town and they have Gental Spa. I will get it from them. I would like to says thanks again for all the help from people on this forum. You are a wealth of knowledge.
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Regarding the impact of adding calcium on TA, adding calcium hardness generally doesn't have a significant effect on TA levels. The Total Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness are separate measurements that influence water balance differently. However, it's essential to monitor both TA and calcium levels for overall water balance.
To calculate how much more acid to add, it would be helpful to get a reliable TA reading from the spa store or use a reliable water testing kit. Based on that reading, you can calculate the appropriate amount of acid to bring the TA to the desired range. It's important to follow the recommended guidelines and instructions provided by the spa store or the acid manufacturer to ensure safe and effective acid dosing.
Regarding the Silken product, if you're concerned about it potentially raising the pH, it might be best to avoid using it at this time. Instead, focus on balancing the TA and pH levels first. Once those are in the desired range, you can consider using the Silken product if it aligns with your water maintenance goals.
Lastly, it's worth mentioning that switching to the 488 filter and removing the micro clean filter is a decision you've made. Be sure to follow the manufacturer's instructions for proper installation and maintenance of the new filter to ensure optimal filtration and water quality in your hot tub.
Remember, maintaining water balance in your hot tub is crucial for water clarity, equipment longevity, and bather comfort. It's always a good idea to consult with spa professionals or refer to the manufacturer's recommendations for specific guidance based on your hot tub model and the products available to you.
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Feel like there must have been a warp in the space-time continuum today