Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Silent Water on September 27, 2006, 05:11:51 pm
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Phew! I'm amazed at how much time, effort and expense it takes just getting ready for my hot tub. (I'm a do-it-yourselfer-cuz-I'm-a-cheap-bugger kind of a guy). Seems that one solution just leads to another question. Here's my latest...
The tub we've chosen requires a 50 amp circuit (actually drawing about 36 max). The bad news :'(is that I have a full fuse panel that already has a pony panel off it for the A/C and dryer. The good news :) is that when we moved into the house, we changed the electric stove over to gas so... the stove circuit (35 amp using 8 gauge 3-wire) is now available for the hot tub! The best news ;D is that the unused stove wire is in EXACTLY the right position to take it out to the tub. No fuss, no muss, just through the wall and into the GFCI breaker panel.
My question is this: will the 8 gauge wire be adequate to run the tub or do I need to upgrade to 6 gauge? (The tub is about 25-30 feet from the panel.) Thanks for your input!
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My brother is an electrician for a paper mill here in VA. I asked him and he said that he would definately use to the #6 wire for the 50 amp circuit regardless of the length of the run. Hope that helps!
-Law Dawg
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I am no electrician, but when I wired my Tiger River 50 amp gfci, I used the installation manual as a guide for wire sizes and it showed 8 guage for runs less than 100 feet. Now your local Home Depot will tell you 6 guage is required for a 50 amp circuit, but the guage of wire is dependent on amp draw and length, not just amp draw..
I would say you are fine with 8 guage, assuming its less than 100 foot from the panel.. Just upgrade the breaker to a 50 amp and make sure there is 4 wires there.. a ground, a common, and 2 legs.. If there is only a ground and 2 legs, you will have to run a common because the gfci will not function without a proper common lead. Its ok if the common and ground are hooked together in the breaker box, just so long as there is a ground rod connected to the box..
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I looked at a couple charts for wire sizing for pumps (my company wholesales water well pumps) and the thing is that AWG does not recommend #8 wire for more than 40 amps, although #6 is capable of running 50 amps continuous load over 300 feet. So because of the American Wire Gauge charts, even though #8 can handle well over 50 amps continuous over 40 feet, electricians will recommend #6 for anything 50 amps or higher.. I dont know what electrical code is in your area, but that would be the best thing to refer to.
I do know that Hot Springs recommends #8 for 50 amps load less than 100 feet.
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Definitely do not use the wire that's in place. If you follow this advice, go ahead and run #6 THHN copper...this will be greater than needed for a 50 amp circuit but, should you ever get another tub that utilizes a 60 amp circuit, the #6 would not have to be upgraded.
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I am not a electrician, but my father was. He taught me alot, enough to do the wiring for my entire home (and tub).
Be safe not sorry. Replace the existing wire with #6/4wire. Make sure the box breaker is 50 amp. and that you have the proper disconnect located 5 - 10 feet from the tub. Also you must have a GFCI breaker either at the main box or at the tub disconnect. I put my GFCI at the tub end, got the box with 50amp GFCI breaker at home depot for about $80, and put a std. 50amp breaker in the main box. Found that to be the least expensive route.
Again be safe not sorry, you don't want to risk electrocution or a fire. ;)
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I wish mine was $80.00. The Home Depot in Edmonton sells that 50 amp GFCI box for $255.00. Where did you purchase yours?
I am not a electrician, but my father was. He taught me alot, enough to do the wiring for my entire home (and tub).
Be safe not sorry. Replace the existing wire with #6/4wire. Make sure the box breaker is 50 amp. and that you have the proper disconnect located 5 - 10 feet from the tub. Also you must have a GFCI breaker either at the main box or at the tub disconnect. I put my GFCI at the tub end, got the box with 50amp GFCI breaker at home depot for about $80, and put a std. 50amp breaker in the main box. Found that to be the least expensive route.
Again be safe not sorry, you don't want to risk electrocution or a fire. ;)
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According to the national electric code for 3 wires in a cable or raceway, 90 deg ambient, #8 THHN is good for 55 amps. Being safe is one thing, being wasteful is another.
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I believe I ran #6 wire and I was at the 85 ft mark.
Ultimately, it's the manufacturer of the tub that will dictate which wire you run. They might void the warranty if an electrical problem ruins a circuit board. Ask you dealer and the township inspector!
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According to the national electric code for 3 wires in a cable or raceway, 90 deg ambient, #8 THHN is good for 55 amps. Being safe is one thing, being wasteful is another.
Every state is different but in California #8 wire on a 50 amp breaker is not allowed. #6 is required by code.
I know everyone on this board is trying to help but I really feel you should ask the company that you purchased it from for advice. Some spa companies will void the warranty if your electical is not correct. Make sure you use the wire the is required by the manufacture.
Being "WASTEFULL" is one thing, but being "CHEAP" is another
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Micah, agreed, but better yet ask your local liscensed electrician. Do not assume that your spa salesman knows anything about proper electrical installations.
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I am pretty sure to meet most building codes, #6 wire is required for any 50 amp service. You may get by ok with #8 but when dealing with electric, it is always better to be safe than sorry.
Jr
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I am using an electrician who is a family friend. Teacher full-time, been doing electrical work his whole life. Does a great job!
Would you get the setup inspected by your local town? We are choosing NOT to do so...
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Definitely do not use the wire that's in place. If you follow this advice, go ahead and run #6 THHN copper...this will be greater than needed for a 50 amp circuit but, should you ever get another tub that utilizes a 60 amp circuit, the #6 would not have to be upgraded.
Posted by: ORANGEPEEL Posted on: Today at 6:50pm
I am not a electrician, but my father was. He taught me alot, enough to do the wiring for my entire home (and tub).
Be safe not sorry. Replace the existing wire with #6/4wire. Make sure the box breaker is 50 amp. and that you have the proper disconnect located 5 - 10 feet from the tub. Also you must have a GFCI breaker either at the main box or at the tub disconnect. I put my GFCI at the tub end, got the box with 50amp GFCI breaker at home depot for about $80, and put a std. 50amp breaker in the main box. Found that to be the least expensive route.
Again be safe not sorry, you don't want to risk electrocution or a fire.
Windsurfdog and Orangepeel have said all that I would have
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I personally did not pull a permit, when installing my tub.
The main thing is making sure that everything is completely safe. You are sitting in 300-500 gallons of water surrounded with 30-50 amps of 220v current. If not setup correct it has the potential to be deadly.......
Jr
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Something else to consider is that stove wiring may have an uninsulated ground, like if it's romex cable, and in many areas a non insulated ground is a no no.
Go for the 6 gauge on a 50 amp breaker.
And check the wiring requirements as stated in your installation manual.
For the Optima, either the 50 or 60 amp, Sundance says to use #6 awg copper.
Using wiring contrary to what the manufacturer states could be grounds to deny a warranty claim should something related to your electric happen.
Cal Spa has been singled out on this board many times for this type of thing.
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You people rock!
Thanks for all the help. I checked the Sundance manual carefully and only noted two things that they mention about gauge of wire. They read:
1) "Wire size must meet NEC recommendations and is determined by maximum current draw [in this case 36 amps] and length of run [in this case 25-30 feet]."
2) "When using wire larger than #6, add a junction box near the spa and reduce to short lengths of #8 wire between the junction box and the spa."
Now, we all know that the line-of-sight junction box must be not closer than about 10 feet from the spa. And it looks like Sundance recommends using #8 gauge for the final 10 feet from that junction. So... common sense tells me that 30 feet should be well within the tolerance length for this gauge wire. However, common sense and code often don't always jibe, do they? I guess that the electrician will make the final call for me. I'd love to save the extra 200 bucks for the wire and my time to run it, but I'm not about to fool with something this important.
To paraphrase J.K. Rowling: "There will come a time when we all must choose between what is right and what is easy."
I'll keep you posted. Thanks again!
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Wise choice to defer the decision to your electrician, do what's right in the long run.
And as someone else suggested- running 6 awg wire might be a good long term investment in case you ever decide to put in a spa with more electrical demand.
Some Sundance spas, like mine can and do run on a 60 amp breaker, and no way would I put 8 gauge wire on that. I won't put #8 on a 50 amp breaker either- I'd go up to 40 amps, but no more. But that's just me.
The NEC specifies that your disconnect must be at least 5' from the water (not the outside of the shell, but the nearest point to the water), no farther than 50' away, and within line of sight.
Good luck with the spa.
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What if my waterproof box containing my 50 amp disconnect was 3 feet from my tub?
Wise choice to defer the decision to your electrician, do what's right in the long run.
And as someone else suggested- running 6 awg wire might be a good long term investment in case you ever decide to put in a spa with more electrical demand.
Some Sundance spas, like mine can and do run on a 60 amp breaker, and no way would I put 8 gauge wire on that. I won't put #8 on a 50 amp breaker either- I'd go up to 40 amps, but no more. But that's just me.
The NEC specifies that your disconnect must be at least 5' from the water (not the outside of the shell, but the nearest point to the water), no farther than 50' away, and within line of sight.
Good luck with the spa.
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What if my waterproof box containing my 50 amp disconnect was 3 feet from my tub?
It wouldn't pass inspection if the authority granted jurisdiction (electrical inspector) followed the NEC. Should you ever have to pass a home inspection in the future, any home inspector worth his salt would write you up for the violation which could cost you to move it beyond the 5 foot allowance or, in a worse case scenario, cost you a sale if the inspection was from a prospective buyer. Other than that, no big deal, unless you decide to stand in your tub full of water, lean over the edge and do some electrical work like maybe trying to reset a tripped GFI... :o
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The NEC specifies that your disconnect must be at least 5' from the water (not the outside of the shell, but the nearest point to the water), no farther than 50' away, and within line of sight.
Does anyone know what this last part really means? Obviously you could be sitting the spa with your back to the disconnect. Or, let's say there's a bay window sticking out from the house and the disconnect is in a nook where the bay window meets the house so that you can only see it from one side of the spa. Are these sorts of situations okay?
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Taking it a bit further... my tub is going to go on the pad to the right, where the fire pit currently is. I plan to put the disconnect near the nook to the right of the bay window. As you can tell, you wouldn't be able to see it as from the left half of the spa. Is that a problem?
(http://www.socalsportbikes.info/xmb/attachments/34475.jpg)
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I am about to go on a rant about this, so please keep in mind this is just something that irritates me. I dont recommend that anyone goes against local building codes for any reason. Most building code is put in place to not only protect against the "worst case scenario" but also to protect against contractors (electrical or otherwise) that dont know their head from their ass and couldnt do their job if there wasnt a really basic guideline for them to follow. This does not mean that all electricians, or other contractors are incompetent, but rather than there are some that are, and we all have to pay for that. With that being said, here is my rant:
The thing that irritates me about all this stuff is that electrical code and what physics allows for do not always coincide with each other.. many times, electrical code, or any building code for that matter, is designed with 200-300% tolerances in place.. While 8 gauge wire can handle 60 or 70 amps continuous all day for as long as you want (at 30 feet) with only a few volts drop, most code goes along with the AWG charts and says that if its not in an appliance, then it has to be #6 wire for a 50 amp circuit.
Here is the thing.. lets say you have 99 feet of #8 wire and are running a continuous 50 amps at 220 volts through it. The temperature of the wire might go up a few degrees, still will be at least a couple hundred degrees short of the melting point of plastic insulation, and about a thousand degrees short of melting silicone insulation. There will be about a 1.5 volt drop in voltage, which is less than will happen if you turn on any other appliance in your house anyway (most houses will vary by 10 or more volts anyway.. some are at 230 volts, some at 210).. Other than that, NOTHING else will happen.. Now, if the common is not connected, or the ground is not grounded properly, the GFCI circuit might not work and in the case of a dead short THROUGH the water of the tub you could get shocked..
The pumps are going to run even if voltage drops more than 10 volts, they will just draw more amps.. and not that many more.. in a severe undervoltage situation, if there was no protection on the pumps, then amperage can go way up, but it would likely cause problems with the small wires going from the controller to the pump (or the windings on the motor) rather than the wire feeding the GFCI. And in any case where this happens, there are 2 breakers and probably an under/over voltage circuit in place between the electrical service and the pump.
The guidelines that electricians use are based on maximum conditions.. 300 feet at max continuous amp draw on a circuit.. you can run #6 wire at 240 volts, 50 amps, continuous in a 300 foot run all day every day and not have any issues at all. Even though you can run #10 wire in the same conditions on a 30 foot run without a problem, they figure the electricians arent smart enough to take the length into account, so they rate it for maximum conditions.. regardless if it increases costs by double or triple..
Just for the record, I would have upgraded from the HotSpring recommended #8 to what electricians would recommend (#6) if the cost hadnt gone up by $190. I just couldnt justify a 100% increase in price when not only did my background in pumps and in physics tell me that #8 was big enough, but also the manufacturer recommended it.
Bottom line is this: As long as there is a ground that connects at some point to a grounding rod, and the ground is of proper size, and there is a common lead that is connected to the common lead off the power line, and 2 legs that are 110 vots each and out of phase with each other, and there is a GFCI breaker between all that and your tub, you are not going to have an issue, as long as the wire is of reasonable size. Downsizing the wire will give you voltage loss and more heat in the wire, it wont blow up your tub motors, and it wont cause a fire.. Now if you use 16 ga wire at 100 feet and try to run 3 5hp pumps off it, you will probably have a fire before the 60 amp breaker trips.. In the real world, electrical fires and electrocution happen when you exceed a rated circuit by ridiculous amounts, or when you improperly hook up a circuit, or when you have a weak connection at some point. Most houses built more than 20 years ago are way out of code, but you dont see entire neighborhoods going up in flames when people have 2 tv's, a computer, a cable box, a vcr, a dvd, a stereo, 3 lamps, and a cell phone charger running off the same 15a circuit that powers the washing machine..
Here is what will happen if you improperly size your wire (within reason) : You might trip a breaker, or your protection circuitry might trip and not allow your tub to run. Thats it.. it wont catch fire, it wont electrocute you when you go to turn it on, and if its a decent hot tub with halfway decent electronics, it wont ever damage the tub..
I am not going to say that peoples tubs have never been damaged, or fires have never happened, or people have never been shocked as a result of improper wire size, but I promise you that if it did happen, it was a combination of factors, and there is more to it than just running a #8 wire in place of a #6 wire.
End Rant.
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Agreed, and that is what I was trying to point out in my post referencing the national electric code with respect to wire ampacity. However, spa salespeople are not electricians or physicists, or engineers, and will always advise their customers on what they PERCEIVE to be the safest path based on information from spa manufacturers and electrical subcontractors, neither of which has the customers financial best interest in mind. In addition customers are easily frightened in the ways of electricity and will gladly pay much more than necessary for what they PERCEIVE to be safe.
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dkersten & Repeat_Offender,
I am not an electrician and I don't work with the NEC but I think the bottom line for any project is what the township requires and will pass. The inspector that came for me only wanted to see that the motors were grounded - that's it. I asked him "don't you want to see if the GFI works?" he answered NO!
The electrician who wired my tub asked other electricians about different "needs" and followed the info I received from the dealer (maybe from the manufacturer - the dealer gave it to me) pretty much to the letter. His concern was the length of wire running at 85' and the fact only 6' of flexible conduit can be used.
The inspector didn't look at any of this and as far as he knew, I, a lowly homeowner, who could put pennies into electrical slots to make them work wired up the tub. He even was there to inspect the 200 Amp upgrade that I did. Not much was looked at.
Bottom line of my post is that the codes are open to interpretation to the individual inspector and regardless of how much the person doing the project knows and is correct - the inspector has the final word. The best advice I can give is to ask the township - they will tell a homeowner exactly what they need to pass, once the wiring is in it'll be twice as expensive to do it the township's way if they don't approve!
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My spa manual required #6 for 240V 50Amp circut. It also required that the box be 5' away from the spa. The warranty would be void if the wiring is not as shown in the manual. I would recommend getting your manual and follow what it says. My manual was available at the mfg. website, I got a copy before my tub was delivered and had everything ready. I got a GFCI box with breaker made for spas at Home Depot for $79.95, I would ask them for the one that is $79, couldn't be much more than that now, I got mine this past summer. I asked my electrician if we could use smaller wire from the box to the tub, and he said no, he wouldn't wire it unless we used #6. Good Luck.
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Quote from pg_rider:
Does anyone know what [line of sight] really means?
Here's WHY you need a shut-off that is visible from the spa but not within arms reach of the water:
1) It has to be far enough away from the tub so that you don't decide to stand in your tub full of water, lean over the edge and do some electrical work like maybe trying to reset a tripped GFI...
(Thanks, Windsurfdog!)
2) It has to be close enough so that when your tub breaks down, poor Workman Bob fiddling with the tub's guts can SEE that the breaker has been shut off. In fact, most disconnects have panels that "lock" so that once the breaker's been switched off, little Timmy can't come along flipping switches while Workman Bob has his tongue on the red wire! :P
3) Have you seen some people's basements?!? Sometimes you can't even find the breaker panel, let alone figure out which breaker is connected to the tub. If you ever had to shut off the tub in an emergency, it's a lot easier to flip the outside switch than it is to squeeze behind the furnace, trip over the catbox in the dark and rummage behind the boxes of Christmas decorations to get to the panel.
Nothing fancy or techie about line of sight. It just makes sense to put the disconnect in plain view in case there's ever "trouble".
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Simple stuff- The NEC is a guideline that a municipality can use to enforce standards.
The local inspectors always have final say as to what is allowed or not, and they may or may not seemingly conflict with the NEC.
It's up to the individual to decide to follow the code or not. It's ultimately your home, your responsible for it.
Some cities do inspections before allowing a property to be sold. Many of the largest cities in the Minneapolis area do- and if you have work done on the property that needed a permit (like spa wiring probably does) they'll check that you had one and it passed inspection before you're allowed to sell the property.
You also have to prove that any work done without a permit meets current code, even if it means tearing into walls, or digging up trenches and footings to prove it.
What could really suck is that your basement remodel might have met code when you did it in 1972, but since your permit wasn't obtained, they hold you to new code.
Might be a long shot, but something to consider.
By the way, the inspector who looked at my spa wiring, and a larger basement wiring project I did at the same time, was very thorough. I passed the spa wiring wiithout needing any corrections. I did have to re do a few things in the basement wiring to get a final pass on that.
I got complimented by the inspector on the spa wiring- he told me that it's very unusual for even real electricians to pass without corrections on pool and spa wiring.
He also told me that the #1 source of information on who was doing work without permits was neighbors ratting on each other. So if you do decide to fly under the radar of your inspectors, don't brag about it to anyone.
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I definately want to stress that local code should always be followed. My rant was purely because I was not about to double my costs by going with what electricians are taught vs what the manufacturer recommended. A #8 wire can handle 50 amps over a 50 foot span, and according to HotSpring, over a 100 foot span. AWG and the NEC specify #6 for ANY 50 amp circuit that is outside of an appliance, regardless of length. I think this is stupid, but understandable once you meet an electrician who has the IQ of an onion.
If your local electrical code follows the national electrical code, then you should use #6. I didnt consult a licensed electrician on mine, and followed what the manufacturer suggested. Having some experience with the local inspectors, I am confident that when I go to sell my house it will have no problems passing inspection. This may not be the case for all areas though, so make sure you have at LEAST what the manufacturer recommends, and then decide from there. Around here, #6 wire costs 89 cents per foot per wire, and AWG and NEC recommend #8 ground to go with the #6 wire, so you have about $3.50 per foot plus conduit and fittings. This comes out at about $4.50 per foot versus the #8 setup at about $2.75 per foot. Over a span of 100 feet this can cost a LOT. I only needed 50 feet for mine.