Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Bullfrog Spas => Topic started by: flya750 on February 15, 2019, 12:58:39 am
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Hello,
I'm considering a Bullfrog X7L and I wanted to get an idea of actually operating costs I can expect per month?
The salesman tells me my electric bill will not increase more than $20 bucks? That seems low?
Also, what can I expect for costs with chemicals?
Thanks!
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Hello,
I'm considering a Bullfrog X7L and I wanted to get an idea of actually operating costs I can expect per month?
The salesman tells me my electric bill will not increase more than $20 bucks? That seems low?
Also, what can I expect for costs with chemicals?
Thanks!
Where you live and how much you use the tub are the determining factors. 15 bucks a month in the summer 50 in the winter.
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I'd be shocked to see a bullfrog cost $50 a month unless you live at altitude and even then probably not. Bullfrog are very efficient. I have a guy at 9k feet and the best estimate that he has on monthly energy increase is about $35 in the coldest month of the year.
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Cost per kWh varies around the country but it's easy enough to track once you get started. Here is a link to show what's what. Eleven cents and under is considered the cheapest rated by states, upward of .17 to .25 cents range and above are the most expensive.
https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/
I'm in Colorado Springs at 6620 ft and we have pretty mild winters compared to the media sensation of weather news for Colorado winters and "the mountains" that really do get some excitement more often. We DO get hellacious temp swings from night to day at times like mid 60's days and down to thirties at night. I had the same estimated cost question and it's a popular one. We set up our tub in late October. I established our previous bill showed 580 kWH for the month and added in are itemized access use costs. I wanted to track my use and knew we were headed into the heating season when the furnace fan runs and we at times use an aux electric baseboard style heater. Then of course, soon to come Christmas season, lights etc.....
- Incidentally, that 580 kWh is way below the nat'l average that might be closer to 900 or 1000 and not my 'average' for the year either so realize the percentage of your bill that is the hot tub versus total kWh will be fairly low.
Catching it before the big temp drop and other variables, I can tell you my first few months cost was additionally about $30/ month as we moved into the colder weather. I say a buck to a $1.30 a day is most of what I'll see through the cold months and it's proving out. My tub is a 400 gallon 2 pump system, 5 kw heater and circ pump filtering and temp sampling as needed or settings choice. (2004 Marquis Reward)
I'll tell you the first month bill (just the tub use cost portion) will likely be almost twice your norm if you fill it with cold tap water at 50 some degrees. The tub will heat at full throttle for hours to gain the temp setting and that itself can be about what it takes to maintain the temp setting all through the month. My first bill was about $55 - 58 extra and I predicted that. Tub efficiencies vary some, I'm sure and mine is from 2004 when things might have had slightly looser standards, I just don't know.
Keep in mind, we are probably talking pennies or dimes a day to compare some of these with some of those. ;D
* I have yet to find anyone who truly sets back the tub temp regularly just to save some money. Unless going away on vacation for a long time or no use in a few colder months, you wont' save anything due to the extra work and time the tub needs to fight it's way back to use temp. Many do offer set backs or recommend 80 degrees for those times when you are not shutting it down and draining completely though. If it's idling or off season mode, keeping the chemistry in line and working still fits within the 80 temp range and no real temptation " to see if I can save $5.00 this month ! " ;)
I've taken a few phone snaps of my meter reading just to be able to keep tabs on it around our end of month reading date. It's nice to know things are consistent and as expected.
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I'd be shocked to see a bullfrog cost $50 a month unless you live at altitude and even then probably not. Bullfrog are very efficient. I have a guy at 9k feet and the best estimate that he has on monthly energy increase is about $35 in the coldest month of the year.
I'll give you a 100% assurance a bullfrog can cost 50 bucks a month. Quit the pitch. Initial start up, Northern Minnesota climate, heavy use, all these things affect cost. BF is no exception and not as efficient as other tubs out there.
Want to be shocked, come to Northern Minnesota.
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Good point on initial start-up, costs more to heat 400 gals of 50 degree water. Also, more laundry loads of towels with an electric dryer and add a few KW. My electric bill has been about 9-10 KW per day more the past 3 months compared to last year, before I had the tub. (Caldera Makena - 400 gals). So, call it 10 KW per day more X 30 day + 300KW @ .08 cents = $24.00. I keep the water temp at 101 degrees. I live near Charlotte, so average temp range in winter is 30's-50's.
I read somewhere the the circulation pump that runs 24/7 is equivalent to a 40 watt bulb, or about $3.40 per month of the $24.00
I hope this helps.
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Tman, it's not a pitch. It's experience with 1000's of customers in a mountain climate. I'm tired of arguing with you about bullfrog. You've seen a total of 3 in your life so clearly i'm wrong and you are right.
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I'd be shocked to see a bullfrog cost $50 a month unless you live at altitude and even then probably not. Bullfrog are very efficient. I have a guy at 9k feet and the best estimate that he has on monthly energy increase is about $35 in the coldest month of the year.
I'll give you a 100% assurance a bullfrog can cost 50 bucks a month. Quit the pitch. Initial start up, Northern Minnesota climate, heavy use, all these things affect cost. BF is no exception and not as efficient as other tubs out there.
Want to be shocked, come to Northern Minnesota.
They could hit probably hit $50 after a drain/refill during a cold month and accounting for heatup costs, but I will say X-Series is very well insulated cause they insulate the same way as all the Bullfrogs are insulated, better than 95% of tubs sold in a similar price range, hell they're better insulated than a 12k Sundance who claims 'full foam' but is far from it
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Hot tub use cost wasn't the shocker as it turned out.
People spending fifteen grand or more for a spa and posting worries of monthly cost was though !! lol That's truly what got my attention and rattled my cage. ;)
Last fall, we were considering a hot tub and planning to shop them to get preliminary ideas of size and footprint for soon-to-be landscaping projects that would ultimately include a spa. It was a longer range plan likely beyond 3-5 months before purchase.
Within a day or maybe even the same day we were going to one of the stores with 'solid' brands to get measurements and enjoy the eye appeal of the glossy upscale yard ornaments, my wife's boss discovered our interest and offered his tub he wasn't using much anymore.
The ramped up timing was exciting, as much so as the 'savings' but as I read more of hot tubs learning as I perused forums and sites, I realized folks that were willing to or had spent upward of $15,000 and well beyond that were asking , worrying or posting about monthly costs. That's the thing that triggered my interest in use cost.
I'm not suggesting everyone that spends 15 to 20 large is RICH yet at the same time, what's the actual worry or number on a monthly basis that would cause THEM concern ? ???
Happy to say I didn't see any evidence of real-world horror stories ref monthly bills. Just in general perusal, seen info that I considered pretty consistent within climate variables that $30 to $45 was the higher tier per wintering months although not extreme as some states to the extreme north and Canada.
I'll also say again that a lower than national average bill before tub might be based near 600 or 750 kWh a month and 300 to 450 more kWh sounds like a lot whereas more average homeowner use is upward of 900 or 1000 before tub. With just my wife and I, we experienced that "bigger percentage" too with previous month/s around 570 kWh. Just the same, 35 to 50 bucks may be the expected range in colder months (at .11 to .12 cents rate) no matter what your pre tub home kWh use was or is.
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Tman, it's not a pitch. It's experience with 1000's of customers in a mountain climate. I'm tired of arguing with you about bullfrog. You've seen a total of 3 in your life so clearly i'm wrong and you are right.
My post was 100% accurate, read it again. Give me the amp draw on the motor/s and wattage of heater and hours of usage along with climate and I can estimate it better but giving a range of 15 to 50 and asking for more info is accurate even if you don't want it to be. I never even considered the brand into the equation. Somehow you see it as a cut on BF but you always do.
If your tired of arguing give facts and not sales pitch. Meter one. I've metered hundreds. Even a small HS circ pump and heater can run over 50 here where I live. And a 30 dollar average is pretty close for most higher end brands. And I've seen BF's insulation, meh. The OP's salesman lied to him.
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Tman, it's not a pitch. It's experience with 1000's of customers in a mountain climate. I'm tired of arguing with you about bullfrog. You've seen a total of 3 in your life so clearly i'm wrong and you are right.
My post was 100% accurate, read it again. Give me the amp draw on the motor/s and wattage of heater and hours of usage along with climate and I can estimate it better but giving a range of 15 to 50 and asking for more info is accurate even if you don't want it to be. I never even considered the brand into the equation. Somehow you see it as a cut on BF but you always do.
If your tired of arguing give facts and not sales pitch. Meter one. I've metered hundreds. Even a small HS circ pump and heater can run over 50 here where I live. And a 30 dollar average is pretty close for most higher end brands. And I've seen BF's insulation, meh. The OP's salesman lied to him.
I agree with you on the cost(s)...but as far as insulation being 'meh' you are 100% dead wrong and I have dozens upon dozens of pictures to prove it...they full fill the cabinet even on a $5,995 X5L...I had a 15k Sundance Maxxus on our wet rack a couple months ago, they don't even full fill the cabinet, either does Jacuzzi and other tops brands selling for 10k-15k....Hot Spring/Caldera and Bullfrog are 2 of the only companies I know that actually stand behind a 'Full Foam' sales pitch and back it up by actually fully filling the cabinet space, you can probably toss Marquis into that conversation although I haven't seen inside a brand new one...Sundance and Jacuzzi are by far the biggest joke, they should be advertised as 'Half Foam'
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Tman, it's not a pitch. It's experience with 1000's of customers in a mountain climate. I'm tired of arguing with you about bullfrog. You've seen a total of 3 in your life so clearly i'm wrong and you are right.
My post was 100% accurate, read it again. Give me the amp draw on the motor/s and wattage of heater and hours of usage along with climate and I can estimate it better but giving a range of 15 to 50 and asking for more info is accurate even if you don't want it to be. I never even considered the brand into the equation. Somehow you see it as a cut on BF but you always do.
If your tired of arguing give facts and not sales pitch. Meter one. I've metered hundreds. Even a small HS circ pump and heater can run over 50 here where I live. And a 30 dollar average is pretty close for most higher end brands. And I've seen BF's insulation, meh. The OP's salesman lied to him.
I agree with you on the cost(s)...but as far as insulation being 'meh' you are 100% dead wrong and I have dozens upon dozens of pictures to prove it...they full fill the cabinet even on a $5,995 X5L...I had a 15k Sundance Maxxus on our wet rack a couple months ago, they don't even full fill the cabinet, either does Jacuzzi and other tops brands selling for 10k-15k....Hot Spring/Caldera and Bullfrog are 2 of the only companies I know that actually stand behind a 'Full Foam' sales pitch and back it up by actually fully filling the cabinet space, you can probably toss Marquis into that conversation although I haven't seen inside a brand new one...Sundance and Jacuzzi are by far the biggest joke, they should be advertised as 'Half Foam'
Agree with this 100%. Add Marquis on signature series and when you order full foam on celebrity elite and vector series as well. Artesian when ordered full foam is full foam as well. Sundance/Jacuzzi definition of full foam is a joke. Hardly covers the plumbing in most spots.
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Full foam isn't all the same. Some is open cell, some is closed cell. There is foam density in play as well - tell me the foam density. Ask an Artesian dealer who knows his stuff and he'll tell you there are multiple foam types used in one single tub. Then there is other aspects: Is the tub on the ground? What is the footwell sitting on and is there a transference of heat / cold? That is never discussed. Is it on a deck? Does that catch more wind? Is it in the sun? That is never discussed. Is the lip sealed? Is the base and the cabinet sealed? What is the tub temperature at? That is never discussed. Are you leaving the cover off after adding chemicals? How often are you opening the cover? That is never discussed. What is the "Trim level" of the tub? There are quality factors in most brands, so is this a low - end or high end or mid - range product in the product line? What is the cover dimensions? What is its foam density? Is there a wedge that runs the entirety of the hinge or just on the edges? This is not discussed.
I can go on and on. The point is - there are more variables than that are actually being discussed here.
There is more than just your average talking points. And every talking point can be sculpted by a sales pitch. Not implying anyone is being dishonest or deceitful. I am not trying to take anyone's point of view or side. I am just taking the initial question and showing the complexity of it, and how an answer is not able to be concisely given, due to the sheer volume of variables that usually are not actually discussed even by the longest - term salesperson, or the most knowledgeable.
I tried to tackle this question for the manufacturer I work for, so that my dealers can have an answer to this very question. And the reality is - I personally prefer to just tell them what the CEC test read but then note that there is such a wide berth of variables that it is irresponsible to say "Your tub will cost $X to run" when responding.
That is just my take. Please feel free to dissect this, and provide negative or positive feedback, so long as it is constructive.
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Does this count as full foam?
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPQswQQww-2klulKcumDOblTNv3uJOvvTxfjVKm
What about this?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/b2chRbFQ7NAyEF2JA
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I get an error with the first link. Second one is partial foam at best.
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My X8L is easily over $50 in the dead of winter. I never drain water during the winter, only add some once or twice due to evaporation...Use it probably 2-3 times a week for 20-30 min each time. I live in Michigan.
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I get an error with the first link. Second one is partial foam at best.
Same, only 1 pic shows and its clearly partial-foam filled.
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My X8L is easily over $50 in the dead of winter. I never drain water during the winter, only add some once or twice due to evaporation...Use it probably 2-3 times a week for 20-30 min each time. I live in Michigan.
Real world experience Sam!!!!!
Its not me having a problem with BF. It's you having a problem with me and facts.
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How about this:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FEFsD5U3yNuG16m66
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How about this:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FEFsD5U3yNuG16m66
Neither look like full foam to me. What’s that reflective material in the equipment area? What kind of tub are those pictures of?
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I think a better way to look at energy efficiency is actual electrical draw... not dollars. Obviously, that is what we care about, but everyone is on a different plan.
Bottom line is, there is a lot of factors that go into retaining heat. All the hot tubs are generally equally as bad at generating the heat, it comes down to slowing down the heat loss.
More insulation = better heat retention
Better Cover (talking density and seal) = better heat retention
What kind of base it's on matters
You could also talk a bit about how much it filters, but that is really it.
Bullfrogs use the 1/2 polyurethane foam, and it is pretty much fully foamed all the way around except the equipment cabinet (which is generally what you want to prevent your pumps from overheating.)
It's a well built and efficient hot tub. :)
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Neither look like full foam to me. What’s that reflective material in the equipment area? What kind of tub are those pictures of?
The one with the reflective material (not sure exactly what it is) is my Master Twilight Series 8.25. The other one is a Master spa model (can't recall which one) on the floor at the dealer
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With tub energy use, heat loss, insulation, cover quality and other factors, I understand the interests or concerns for any owner or prospective shopper/buyer.
Some will be case by case situations with certain brands or line within a brand that are lacking the cold weather kit due to cost cutting or quality variations to meet a price point. In some climates, those tubs probably won't be a problem and might in fact be a "good buy" considering the application and environment. Heck, some tubs go indoors and many climates have little to no winter.
In more extreme climates, I think it's fundamental to research and make sure one gets the right tub and design / quality but even at that, I think it's a great point as mentioned concerning the many variables of how and where the tub is set up. Wind abatement, open air setting like on a deck with air flow and cold on the under side etc.... Those would be considerations in my case where I'd research more for the better insulated and those brands that carry favorable ratings in the coldest winter areas.
I don't consider my area extreme winter but my shopping would have steered us toward the better brands and quality tubs so my end result would likely have been a decent or well-insulated brand and model. I say "would have" since we were gifted a tub and had no say in the matter. ;)
I respect good salesmanship and good quality but unless I was convinced I was getting a sub par brand or model, I likely would not have been 'stepped up' to pay a premium price just to get better insulation for where I live. It's mostly a mild winter here, my tub sits 6 feet from the house east, 3 feet from a solid fence south and it's on a paver stone patio. We do at times, get a brisk N or NW wind that's b*tchy and it does hit the front of the tub where the access panel is so I may add some foam rubber behind the panel leaving factory vents as is. On this access side, I see nothing in the way of insulation except just along the edging where it's padded to create a snug seal. I suppose it can't hurt that the one pump runs every so often and even at low speed or tiny amp draw, may generate some heat. The cavity under there is always quite warm since the tub water generates some heat transfer (as energy loss) from the shell.
I've yet to pull the skirting off my tub for the other 3 panels so I'll be interested to look into it when the weather gets nicer just to see and compare. I recall mentions of Marquis being a good brand and well built but I know nothing of how standards or energy efficiency has changed or improved over the years and mine is 14 years old.
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Some say that 80-90 percent of heat loss is through the top.
I did some infrared observations with an electrical cooperative assessment guy on one of my tubs and the stat seems close to true.
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Some say that 80-90 percent of heat loss is through the top.
I did some infrared observations with an electrical cooperative assessment guy on one of my tubs and the stat seems close to true.
i think that's true when he spa is pretty well insulated. If the spa is poorly insulated much more than 10% of its lost energy is escaping from the sides/bottom.
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Some say that 80-90 percent of heat loss is through the top.
I did some infrared observations with an electrical cooperative assessment guy on one of my tubs and the stat seems close to true.
Would you guys recommend getting one of those floating solar cover looking things to put on top of the water when not in use?
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Some say that 80-90 percent of heat loss is through the top.
I did some infrared observations with an electrical cooperative assessment guy on one of my tubs and the stat seems close to true.
Would you guys recommend getting one of those floating solar cover looking things to put on top of the water when not in use?
I've seen people commented that they like them, I'm a creature of convenience and hated dealing with it on mine even knowing it helps a bit with insulation and cover life. In the end they're a decent idea if you don't mind them as long as its a secondary line of defense and not a justification to get a lesser insulated spa because it doesn't make a huge difference (IMHO).
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Some say that 80-90 percent of heat loss is through the top.
I did some infrared observations with an electrical cooperative assessment guy on one of my tubs and the stat seems close to true.
Would you guys recommend getting one of those floating solar cover looking things to put on top of the water when not in use?
I've seen people commented that they like them, I'm a creature of convenience and hated dealing with it on mine even knowing it helps a bit with insulation and cover life. In the end they're a decent idea if you don't mind them as long as its a secondary line of defense and not a justification to get a lesser insulated spa because it doesn't make a huge difference (IMHO).
Agreed. I think if you do a ROI you will find a break even.