Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: FL Person on June 13, 2016, 06:09:04 pm
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I'm a first time spa owner and have never owned a swimming pool. My brand new Bullfrog R6 was delivered last week and the electrician was here today to hook it up. When the electrician arrived, I began to fill the tub and I added the chemicals from the Sparkle bromine starter kit (http://www.aldenleeds.com/products/details/brominespakit/), per the instructions. One of the three chemicals (can't recall if it was the Spa Shock, Bromine Initiator or Spa Metal Out) had a deep rust color when poured into the spa and sank into a confined area in one of the seats. The electrician realized he needed some additional parts, so he ended up spending two or three hours working on another project before he ultimately put power to the tub. So, for two or three hours, the chemicals sat idle. Having never owned a spa and having not seen any warnings about this, I thought nothing of it.
Once the spa was up and running, I was surprised to see the rust colored spot was not altering in size or shape. Whatever that chemical is, it has solidified on the seat and even a Scotch Brite pad (as suggested by the dealer) is 100% ineffective at removing this stain. I'm sick about this.
The spa dealer, much to my surprise, had never heard of this happening and for now, is requesting that I give it a day or two to see if it dissipates.
Did I just totally screw up my brand new tub?
FL Person
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/7725/xiiwcJ.jpg)
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That is really odd, I wouldn't scrub it, at least not very hard. Give it a day or so and see if it goes away. if not you might drain down and I would use a spray type brake cleaner on it. Some may say that will hurt the spa, but it won't, I have used it numerous times with out any problems on various scratches on the spa to hard core scuffs at the fair from shoes. You have a lot of iron in your water?
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I'm just replying to wish you luck.... I'd be sick too. Hope there's a way to get rid of that.
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That is really odd, I wouldn't scrub it, at least not very hard. Give it a day or so and see if it goes away. if not you might drain down and I would use a spray type brake cleaner on it...You have a lot of iron in your water?
I'm in the Tampa area. We do have hard water and most everyone has a softener (I used hard water to fill the tub) but I have no idea how much iron is in the water. I'm somewhat surprised no one has seen something like this before. All I did was pour three readily available chemicals into a tub, as has been done thousands of times. Could I be the first person to ever pour these chemicals into standing water? It seems unlikely.
I would think there would be big, bold statements warning of the risk of staining, if this were such an easy mistake to make.
I'll give it a day or two and see where this goes. I have a feeling I'm going to be draining the tub.
FL Person
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That stinks man. I did some googling and it seems like some people try Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to remove metal stains. I don't know if that will help but that may be worth some research.
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That stinks man. I did some googling and it seems like some people try Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to remove metal stains. I don't know if that will help but that may be worth some research.
A neighbor mentioned that too. I'll give it a try tomorrow.
FL Person
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I would try "Goof Off" but the spa will need to be drained. I have seen smaller rust spots in spas before that it takes off fairly easy. Very strange, never seen anything like that before.
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I wouldn’t go at the spot with scotch-brite pad or anything abrasive on the surface of my tub. It looks like iron has come out of suspension and reacted with the metal out or the other chemicals the brom starter maybe didn’t have a chance to dissolve and hardened into a mass on the Acrylic surface.
When you run your hand over the spot does it feel like a build-up or does it feel smooth like the tubs surface?
If it is all smooth that would suggest the stain is into the surface and I don’t see anything removing it. Acrylic is pretty impervious to most things though and I suspect anything that is normally used in a tub is compatible with Acrylic. I would give it a chance to break down on its own and not use anything stronger than a micro-fiber cloth on the surface. We go over the whole inside of the tub about once a week with a microfiber cloth. I wouldn’t use things like break cleaner and such without testing them first on the back side of a filter cover or something and even then I would really not want to risk it on the surface.
Contacting the manufacture might also be a good idea and ask for recommendations.
I add chemicals to our tub almost daily and always do it with the pump running on the clean cycle and I add them into the skimmer basket area never into the tub.
Sorry to hear about this. Enjoy your tub and give it a few weeks and see if it doesn’t start going away on its own. It may just start flaking off with the action of using the tub and the hot water.
Please post back your results and good luck.
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Dealer did not tell you to add chemicals with jets on?
More than likely you will be able to remove the stain. I do not think you destroyed your spa.
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Absolute first thing you do is Vitamin C. It looks like a metal deposit and can easily be removed with the right chemicals found at any pool store. Make sure your pH and alkalinity are balanced and that your sanitizer is low.
If that doesnt work a Magic Eraser is fine. In all- It just looks like something ON the surface and not FROM the shell so you're fine.
Good luck moving forward.
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a light acid scrub with a Mr Clean Magic Eraser should take it right off
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When you run your hand over the spot does it feel like a build-up or does it feel smooth like the tubs surface?
I've been out since early this morning. Just got home - stain is still there. But I can feel resistance when I run my fingers over it. In other words, if your eyes were closed, you'd be able to tell your fingers weren't running across a clean acrylic surface.
Dealer did not tell you to add chemicals with jets on?
I read somewhere - in either the paperwork that came with the tub or the chemicals - to add the chemicals while filling the spa. I had every expectation that the spa would be powered as soon as the water hit the fill line. It was only after I added the chemicals that the electrician told me he had to run to Home Depot for parts. He decided to complete some other work in the mean time, and I thought nothing of it. And no, the dealer never specifically told me to add chemicals only when the water is circulating. I can't believe they would take the bit of information for granted. .
Absolute first thing you do is Vitamin C.
Dumb question; how/where do I buy Vitamin C? Pills from the pharmacy? Or is it sold as a powder from the pool supply store?
a light acid scrub with a Mr Clean Magic Eraser should take it right off
I'll try this if the Vitamin C doesn't work, after I track some down.
Thanks for all of the feedback.
FL Person
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Vitamin C/Citric Acid: Lemon/Lime/Orange slices, Airborn/Vitamin C Tablets, Lemon/Lime juice...
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I tried Vitamin C and a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. Both 100% ineffective. I'm really getting sick about this. The Vitamin C was regular vitamin tablets...they type meant to be swallowed and digested. I'm going to try one more time with the effervescent type that are meant to dissolve in water.
FL Person
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They sell a concentrated amount of Vitamin C. Something like this: http://www.lesliespool.com/leslies-14101-stain-remover-2-lbs/14101.htm
That's Ascorbic Acid.
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While empty use an automotive buffer and some headlight restore polish start easy. The longer you use the buffer you will actually start to heat the tub up. Start light until you get the hang of it . I have fixed deep gouges and scratches this way if it is on the surface and it will come off this will do it.
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Drain it down, pick up a spray can of brake cleaner, spray it on a paper towel and wipe the stuff off. Takes about 15 seconds. Refill the spa and enjoy. IT will not hurt your spa/acrylic, and 15 years of me myself using it on various mars and scuffs and stains in spas it works. If it doesn't work, your pretty much out of luck. Or use the magic eraser, it might take it off..
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Got some guys working out there right now. I'll drain the spa later today and give it a try after they're gone. I often use WD40 in the same way you'd use a product like Goo Gone, etc. It's very good at removing adhesive, black marks and the like. I've got brake cleaner, WD40 and Goof-Off in the garage.
Update later.
FL Person
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a light acid scrub with a Mr Clean Magic Eraser should take it right off
On that note, the only thing I can add to this discussion of my wife brought home some generic versions of the MR Clean Magic Eraser. Those generics are now in the trash.
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WD-40 doesn't evaporate like brake cleaner does.
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I'm absolutely beside myself. The tub is drained. I applied brake cleaner both directly to the stain and to a bright white Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. After scrubbing, the eraser looks as it did when it came out of the package. As far as I can tell, I have not been able to remove a single molecule of this stain.
The dealer is coming here Friday with polishing pads, which I imagine is a process similar to the headlight restoration mentioned earlier. The dealer also spoke to the chemical company who simply mentioned that the chemicals could turn rust-colored if poured into water with a high iron content (as suggested earlier in this thread). Other than that, they offered no information or assistance.
FL Person
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I'm absolutely beside myself. The tub is drained. I applied brake cleaner both directly to the stain and to a bright white Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. After scrubbing, the eraser looks as it did when it came out of the package. As far as I can tell, I have not been able to remove a single molecule of this stain.
The dealer is coming here Friday with polishing pads, which I imagine is a process similar to the headlight restoration mentioned earlier. The dealer also spoke to the chemical company who simply mentioned that the chemicals could turn rust-colored if poured into water with a high iron content (as suggested earlier in this thread). Other than that, they offered no information or assistance.
FL Person
Here's how you remove it, if this doesn't work I'd be shocked.....fill a smaller bowl with 16-18 ounces of good warm/hot water out of the faucet, take your granular pH reducer product, measure out a good 2-3 ounce quantity, pour it into the bowl of warm water, use a spoon to stir it up good and dilute it completely...glove up, soak a mr. clean magic eraser in that solution and scrub that baby off :-)
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If you think it is iron precipitated out as I mentioned earlier I like the chance of the above ph down mentioned above as working. Worth a try.
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That a heavy duty stain you got there! :'(
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Here's how you remove it, if this doesn't work I'd be shocked.....fill a smaller bowl with 16-18 ounces of good warm/hot water out of the faucet, take your granular pH reducer product, measure out a good 2-3 ounce quantity, pour it into the bowl of warm water, use a spoon to stir it up good and dilute it completely...glove up, soak a mr. clean magic eraser in that solution and scrub that baby off :-)
I'll try this in the morning. Thanks.
If you think it is iron precipitated out as I mentioned earlier I like the chance of the above ph down mentioned above as working. Worth a try.
I don't know what to think. As I wrote earlier, this is my first time owning a spa and I've never owned a pool. All of this is new to me and my knowledge on the subject has been mostly garnered through this forum.
FL Person
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Here's how you remove it, if this doesn't work I'd be shocked.....
The notion of a solution was too enticing for me to wait til morning.
100% ineffective. Nothing I have tried has altered the appearance of this mark in the slightest way.
Thanks for the suggestion.
FL Person
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I would try "Goof Off" brand name product, it comes in a yellow can. Not Goo Gone, that isn't nearly close to the strength of Goof Off. I've always been able to get rust spots off of shells with Goof Off.
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I would try "Goof Off" brand name product, it comes in a yellow can. Not Goo Gone, that isn't nearly close to the strength of Goof Off. I've always been able to get rust spots off of shells with Goof Off.
100% ineffective.
I don't believe any longer that this is a stain. I believe the chemicals have physically damaged the acrylic surface.
FL Person
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I doubt this will work, but worth a try. For swimming pools, they make a product called stain out. You pour it into the pool in the area of the stain, and it helps to lift the stain up. Then you follow that up with a metal and scale control to remove the metals so it doesn't re-stain the surface again. Worth a shot maybe.
http://coolpoolstuff.com/regal-stain-out-2-5-lb/ (http://coolpoolstuff.com/regal-stain-out-2-5-lb/)
http://discountpoolsonline.com/home-2/cleaners/?&SingleProduct=807 (http://discountpoolsonline.com/home-2/cleaners/?&SingleProduct=807)
You might also call the Bullfrog headquarters to see what they would suggest. You could email them the picture you have, and see what they say.
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I doubt this will work, but worth a try....
You might also call the Bullfrog headquarters to see what they would suggest. You could email them the picture you have, and see what they say.
I'm done trying cleaners. They have proven completely ineffective. The dealer should be contacting Bullfrog today but at this point, I think the only chance of improving the situation is polishing (effectively, sanding) the affected area. The only question is how deep has it penetrated?
FL Person
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I feel for you man! I think you have done about all you can chemical wise, other than straight muriatic acid on the stain, I have never seen such a thing. Dealer gave you the chems, and in my eyes should be somewhat responsible for it. Let them do what they can for it, even though they have tried by the sounds of it. I think it will go away in time, but how long is that time?? Have you mentioned replacement spa yet or has it come up. It's not going to be a Bullfrog problem, but a dealer problem. Hope they can figure it out for you!!
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I feel for you man! I think you have done about all you can chemical wise, other than straight muriatic acid on the stain, I have never seen such a thing. Dealer gave you the chems, and in my eyes should be somewhat responsible for it. Let them do what they can for it, even though they have tried by the sounds of it. I think it will go away in time, but how long is that time?? Have you mentioned replacement spa yet or has it come up. It's not going to be a Bullfrog problem, but a dealer problem. Hope they can figure it out for you!!
The dealer is coming tomorrow with "polishing pads." I'm going to at least see where that goes before I escalate the conversation of liability.
This is what it looks like with the water drained. You can see the cratered texture. It appears to me that the acrylic has been chemically burned.
FL Person
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/7495/Qrttt5.jpg)
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Have you looked at the MSDS sheet for this product yet?
Not surprised it's not coming off after the close up, it does look like the acrylic
is damaged.
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Have you looked at the MSDS sheet for this product yet?
Not surprised it's not coming off after the close up, it does look like the acrylic
is damaged.
I agree, but how in the world does a "standard" chemical out of a plain jane startup kit burn acrylic? that's just crazy...I had a customer who let calcium go crazy to the point where we literally had to (with his permission, he was selling the house so he had no choice but to either try this or dispose of the entire spa) pour straight 100% muriatiac acid onto the shell, it got rid of the problem and thankfully it didn't cause any further issues but even straight acid didn't damage his acrylic...this is very odd
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Have you looked at the MSDS sheet for this product yet?
Not surprised it's not coming off after the close up, it does look like the acrylic
is damaged.
I linked to the product in my first post. Here is the link again. (http://www.aldenleeds.com/products/details/brominespakit/)
FL Person
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Looks like all standard chemicals. I've never seen a chemical do that before to a tub. Wonder what the dealer will find when he looks at it
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I can't claim complete victory just yet but it looks like there is light at the end of the tunnel. The dealer arrived with white vinegar (Ha! - wishful thinking) :) and a standard, off the shelf 3M Headlight Restoration kit. She wants to do this entirely by hand (no power drill or buffer) so it's a slow process.
But so far, 1000 grit wet sandpaper appears to be slowly working. She's on her way to buy some more 1000 grit, and will ultimately follow this up with the remaining finer grits and polish that's in the kit - but it appears to be doing the trick.
FL Person
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I'll call it a success. Compared to what it was, it's a thousand times better. Compared to new...there are still some specs of orange and some slight discoloration - but when the tub is filled, I'd be surprised if anyone other than me will ever know.
Just glad it wasn't a total catastrophe.
FL Person
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/661/mWwspX.jpg)
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A big sigh of relief on your side I bet! Glad they fixed it for you, it's what customer service is like from a good dealer!
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A big sigh of relief on your side I bet! Glad they fixed it for you, it's what customer service is like from a good dealer!
Yes, I am relieved and yes, the dealer was as responsive as I could have hoped for.
They are good people.
FL Person
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Great to hear! Glad that they got it fixed for ya! Now you can just enjoy it! Congrats on the new spa!
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Have you looked at the MSDS sheet for this product yet?
Not surprised it's not coming off after the close up, it does look like the acrylic
is damaged.
I agree, but how in the world does a "standard" chemical out of a plain jane startup kit burn acrylic? that's just crazy...I had a customer who let calcium go crazy to the point where we literally had to (with his permission, he was selling the house so he had no choice but to either try this or dispose of the entire spa) pour straight 100% muriatiac acid onto the shell, it got rid of the problem and thankfully it didn't cause any further issues but even straight acid didn't damage his acrylic...this is very odd
I used to get rid of rust stains ALL the time with muriatiac acid. Works well and has no effect on the acrylic. When acrylic is thermo formed it becomes porous. Staining can then get into the pours. muriatiac acid cleanse it out almost instantly.
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I used to get rid of rust stains ALL the time with muriatiac acid. Works well and has no effect on the acrylic. When acrylic is thermo formed it becomes porous. Staining can then get into the pours. muriatiac acid cleanse it out almost instantly.
At this point, I'm inclined to leave well enough alone. The few remaining specs aren't worth messing with additional acids/chemicals.
FL Person
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I'm not saying it's the reason, but I always pre-mix my chemicals before adding them into the tub.
I have a large size mason jar with lid, maybe 32oz.
Add the chemicals to that, scoop up some spa water, lid, swirl to mix, pour slowly into spa.
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I'm not saying it's the reason, but I always pre-mix my chemicals before adding them into the tub.
I have a large size mason jar with lid, maybe 32oz.
Add the chemicals to that, scoop up some spa water, lid, swirl to mix, pour slowly into spa.
Thanks for the tip. I'll give that a try. Better safe than sorry.
FL Person
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Just my two cents. Im not an expert at anything spa related and certainly not a chemistry professional. Just wanted to share what I have always been told. Never poor chemicals into pool or spa water that is not at least 80F because some chemicals will not desolve in cold water and will sink to bottom of pool/spa and stain. For what its worth for those still interested in this older thread topic. Very happy for the poster that he was able to get this stain cleaned up without damage.
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FL PERSON, I am brand new to this Forum, so been reading your post here with interest. Happy to hear that things have now worked out for you, and that terrible stain has disappeared. What a nightmare... I too would have been sickened by that whole ordeal.
As someone new to being a Hot Tub Owner, I have to say that sadly, I have found that when you do buy one a lot of stuff seems to be Trial & Error... Manufacturers & Dealers just don't seem to provide Buyers with enough info. I have been reading up like crazy in the last month (and hence how I found this Forum).
Clearly many others have similar issues when it comes to new Ownership, and exactly why websites like this one get so much traffic.
Our Hot Tub was installed, filled & initially set up chemically by the Dealer... After that it was as I say a matter of Trial & Error (it is now about 1 month old and FINALLY I am feeling that I am getting the hang of things when it comes to water chemistry). Again thanks to websites like this one.
Unfortunately, Trial & Error means mistakes are made.
I think your Dealer should have been clearer with you on installation, filling & set up... IMHO you should have been told not to do anything with the tub until after the electrical connection was completed. As well "chemicals should have only been added once the pumps were running / water circulating". That info appears in various places for our own Hot Tub (First Time Set Up Instructions - User Manual - and even printed on the side of the various chemical containers)
As well... This Advice from HTNJ gave me pause...
I'm not saying it's the reason, but I always pre-mix my chemicals before adding them into the tub.
I have a large size mason jar with lid, maybe 32oz.
Add the chemicals to that, scoop up some spa water, lid, swirl to mix, pour slowly into spa.
Everything I've read about chemicals says the following:
1- Add Chemicals to Water... NOT the other way round if you choose to premix / dilute them
Although, some Hot Tubs this step is not required, and chemicals can be added straight into the tub without dilution (READ / CONSULT you Spa Dealer for further info)
2- NEVER mix various Dry Chemicals together (although not sure if that is what HTNJ was saying here).
Chemicals should be added one at a time. And sometimes they need to be added with an intentional interval (again READ the Directions for use on their containers and / or CONSULT with your Spa Dealer).