Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: SoCal Monkey on August 18, 2015, 03:53:11 pm
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This thread was originally titled "Have these extra-strong Sundance jets been discontinued?" Start from the first post if that question interests you, but the discussion led to me wet testing several spas and summarizing my impressions of each, which I thought would be of more general interest, except that it's hidden behind a title asking a narrow question. So, I've changed the title and added this intro. If you want to get right to where the wet tests start, skip to Reply #7, where my wet tests began with a Marquis Epic. (Thanks to orlando1 for his excellent feedback throughout) —SoCal Monkey
I've already picked up lots of great info as a lurker here, so thanks for that. Now it's time to decloak for a question I haven't found the answer to.
The pictures below are of a Sundance Maxxus, circa 2002-2004. I'm particularly interested in the three jets below the filter, as zoomed in the second photo. They're more powerful jets than any I've encountered on other models, but I can't find out conclusively what they were called, or whether they're still available on Sundance (or any other) models. They for sure are gone from the current Maxxus, and the closest I've found are some foot jets on an unfilled Cameo (below the lounge seat), so I couldn't even see them turned on to get an approximate idea.
In the older Maxxus, I know these jets were marketed for some kind of rowing feature, but I just like the power. These pics are of a friend's hot tub I've used many times, and while other jet arrangements are nice, I find these ones to be the killer feature that I can't seem to find on the current market. I wouldn't want to do long soaks in front of them, but they're great for a few minutes of deeper massage than I've got from any other jet. Does anybody here know if they're still available?
(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/Azu_Dood/Hot%20Tub/6373f6b6-f412-478c-9eda-f0238b9618fa_zpsnwc4d30j.jpg)
(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/Azu_Dood/Hot%20Tub/IMG_2008_zpsbxm21axl.jpg)
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I would like to find out more on the jets for older Sundances too. I have a 2001 Cameo and the rotating jets have plastic bearings and after 14 years, the jets just don't rotate as well as they should. The jets you refer to are the 'foot jets' on my tub. Adjustable, but do not rotate. If I find anything out I will post here.
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I have some new bearings for them that i was given I have like 10 extra. Not sure if that would help you but would be glad to send you a couple to see if that would fix your problem
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Not sure about Sundance, but there are several Marquis models that have these types of "geyser" jets. The Marquis Epic has 2 of them stacked on top of eachother near the filter area, they feel great against your back and on your feet.
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Not sure if they are the same exact jets, but they look a lot like whirpool type jets in the cameo. These jets are one of the main reasons I went with the cameo over the optima(being delivered tomorrow if weather permits). They are awesome, I love the fact that not only are there three in the foot well, but there's actually a seat with one in it. Of course I couldn't sit there for a long time, but the five minutes I did knocked all of the soreness out of my lower back. The also do wonders for feet as well. Of all the tubs I've wet tested, these were the only one to rival the geyser jets from marquis.
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Thank you for the feedback. The Cameo seems to be the most likely contender, and I think there's a decent chance I can find one to wet-test in my area. I hadn't heard about Marquis line, so I'll look into those as well. I'll continue to stay tuned in case anyone else has more.
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I've wet tested the marquis epic, it's also a great tub. You couldn't go wrong with neither tub. Good luck on the search.
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I wet tested the Marquis Epic a couple days ago.
* As described here, the two "geyser" jets were powerful, and probably my favorite feature of the tub. I also liked the corner seat with lots of jets that's to the left of the the geysers if you're facing them.
*The lounge seat to the right was a minor disappointment, but I think that was a fit issue, not a design flaw. The jets for the back - especially lumbar - were quite nice on the lounge, but I couldn't enjoy the leg and feet jets because I'm short (5'7") and they tended to blow me up or make me stretch and brace to keep in place, which I wouldn't want to do all the time.
*The two corners on the control panel side (i.e. opposite the geysers) were nothing special. They were good for being a bit higher when I didn't feel like full immersion, but I couldn't see ever spending much time in either seat for the massage action.
*The middle seat directly opposite the geyser jets (adjacent to the control panel) had good back massaging action, especially in conjunction with letting the geysers work the feet. For turning around to let the geysers work the back, that middle seat was also a convenient place to brace against, because those geysers do just push you away if there's nothing to brace against.
* The MicroSilk feature initially malfunctioned, refusing to turn on. The tub was newly delivered to the showroom, so the guy on the floor eventually concluded that it was a conflict with the ready-clean (or whatever Marquis calls it) pumps being on, because the factory default had left that on a 24-hr. cycle. Once he adjusted that to turn off the non-stope cleaning cycle, Microsilk came on, but it was still a little off-putting to see it not work, so dealers, make sure you test on new tubs before your first wet testers are in the tub asking for it. :) It was cool, but I'm not sure it's $2000 cool.
The next two I'd like to test are Sundance Cameo (because it has the "whirlpool" jets I've heard are either the strong ones I first asked about, or close them) and Caldera Cantabria. I don't think the Cantabria has any ultra-strong jets like that, but seems to offer more varied massage options than anything I've heard of so far. I think a local dealer has a Cantabria available to test, and I've seen a Cameo in his showroom, too, but not filled.
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I'm kinda new here, so what's the etiquette? My first question was mainly about the old Sundance jets I was hoping to identify, but now that it's more about shopping and comparing specific models I have wet tested or plan to, should that be a new thread?
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This is where wet-testing is so important because everyone has different preferences. We tried a Sundance Cameo and ruled it out because the jets were TOO powerful and I felt like they were just blowing me away. I found myself wanting to turn off the jets completely and just soak. On the other hand, we tried a Jacuzzi and found that the jets were effective, but more gentle and comfortable to sit in front of. We also tried a LaZBoy Spa with the 17 custom massage settings (which I thought would be amazing)... they all felt kind of the same and generally underpowered and ineffective.
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An earlier reply mentioned the "whirlpool" jets in Sundance tubs, specifically the Cameo, that might be like what I'm looking for in a powerful jet. Can he, or anyone who might know, tell me 1) how they compare to the "geyser" jets in Marquis tubs, and 2) if there are any jets of that type in the Sundance Optima and Maxxus. (The specs on Sundance's site seem to indicate yes to the second question, but it's impossible to identify number or placement by jet type in the marketing pictures.)
There's a dealer local to me (Ventura Co., CA) who sells Sundance tubs, but none of the specific ones I'm interested in are available to wet test. The only Sundance model he has filled is a Maxxus, which he says is enough to try out any seat or jet options that are available in the others. I'm skeptical of that, but also not eager to haggle over filling tubs for me when I'm still in the narrowing down stage. To dealers reading this, how much hassle/expense is involved in filling and prepping for a wet test? Is "interested customer" enough to reasonably ask that it be done, or is that more of a ready-to-buy-from-you-just-deciding-which-one kind of request?
I would also like to wet test a Caldera Cantabria. I don't think it has any of those geyser-like jets I was looking for, but I don't want one feature to be a dealbreaker, and the Cantabria size and layout are appealing. Does anyone know a So Cal dealer where I could find one to wet test? The closer to Ventura County, the better. (I already checked Hydro-Spa — they've got Sundance and some others, but sounded like they have no intention of getting another Cantabria for the floor.)
Thanks.
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There are four of these whirpool jets in the cameo....three in the footwell and one in one of the seats. The three in the footwell are slightly larger than the one in the seat and as a result more powerful. I haven't wet tested the maxxus, but I did wet test the optima a couple of times. It has one of these jets that's not in a seat, but up high and faces the accusage seat at an angle. In that location, I found it to be distracting. But also, from memory it's the same size as the smaller whirpool jet in the cameo, but that jet is still plenty powerful. It's just not as powerful as the three in the cameo's footwell.
Now in comparison to the geyser jets, they are the closest thing to them, and that's including all of the hot tubs I wet tested from hotsprings which also have their own version of "whirpool" jets in the footwell, but not nearly as powerful as the ones in the cameo. I don't think the ones in the cameo's footwell are quiet as powerful as the geyser jets, but they are close(really close). And given there are three vs the two geyser jets in the epic, the effect is actually a little better to me. Those jets in the cameo can litterally peel the skin off the bottome of your feet, and after a long day, sometimes that's just what I need. But I also like the location of them as well in addition to the fact that you can angle them in any direction you like. That's something you can't do with the geyser jets. So I can sit in the seat directly in front of them, angle them up, and get a really nice frontal body massage. The jets are so powerful, I can pretty get a similar effect from any seat, but it's just more intense in the seat that's directly facing them.
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Thank you, Orlando, that's just the kind of detail I was hoping for. It definitely makes me want to wet test the Cameo. I just have to persuade my local dealer to fill one, or find someone else who has one filled. I'm hoping to wet test his Maxxus today or tomorrow, so maybe I can make some progress.
You mentioned being able to angle those jets up to hit upper body. Is the layout such that you can brace yourself to stay in place for that whether massaging the front or back? The power sounds great, but just eyeballing the layout, my concern was that those Cameo jets would be good for feet but not so much for back. It sounds like you're saying that's not a problem, but I want to confirm.
Are we allowed to ask for referrals to help find places to wet test a particular spa? If so, I'm asking anyone who knows to help me find somewhere in Ventura County (CA) to wet test a Sundance Cameo and a Caldera Cantabria. If not, pretend I didn't ask. :)
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The fourth jet which is slightly smaller is located in a seat that hits you directly in the lower back. Honestly, I think it's more than enough. It's so powerful, that I couldn't see anyone sitting there with the jet going full blast for more than a couple of minutes. I call it the specialty seat. For me it serves one purpose. On the days I have to do yard work around the house and my lower back is in knots, about 30 seconds in that seats knocks the pain right out. But it's possible to have the three larger ones to hit you in the back.
Depending on how tall you are, you can sit directly on the floor with your back facing the jets and your feet propped against the front wall of the tub. I have tried it, and it's like sitting in front of three firehouses(literally). I don't see anyone needed that type of therapy, but it's fun to try it out a couple of times. But sitting in the seat directly in front of them gives me good front body therapy without it being to intense. I don't need to brace myself against anything. But if one needed to, there are places to do that.
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Thanks for the additional descriptions, orlando1. I wouldn't expect those strong jets to appeal to everyone, but as I mentioned in the opening post, it was three jets like that in an old Maxxus that got me looking in the first place. I know I've liked them in my friend's old Maxxus, but that's about it. It's possible the novelty would quickly wear off, which is why I'm considering jets like that a bonus if I can find them, but not a must-have.
With all that in mind, I wet tested a Maxxus yesterday. It had 2 whirlpool jets in opposite corner seats, coming out the side such that they are *not* positioned for easy use for strong massage. In this case, I think "whirlpool" really does mean making the pool whirl, not for deep massage. Despite that, I found much to like, and a few other things I didn't.
I was pleased with the massage action and variety of all three regular corner seats. In one of the corners with a whirlpool jet, there's a diverter that switches between good back and neck action, or calves and glutes. Both settings felt good. Turning that diverter halfway allowed for hitting all areas at once, but not full power (which is probably okay). I did notice it sounded kind of loud when halfway like that. The other corners were just nice variations, one of which also had calf jets that I liked. Sliding down a bit in all those seats also felt good for some different action on the neck and shoulders. I liked the footwell that offered some foot action from pretty much every seat. I wish the footwell jets could be set stronger when wanted, but for a no-adjustment jet, their strength was okay.
The main disappointment was the lounge seat. I wanted to like it, and I'm sure it would be great for someone who fits it, but it wasn't made to fit me. I'm 5'7", and the leg jets pushed me up if I just relaxed. I could brace my feet against the foot-jet area to hold myself in place, but that didn't seem a very relaxing way to enjoy that seat long-term. Also, the spacing of leg jets was too wide to hit my legs all at once, so it was more like waving my legs back and forth to get hit by two of those jets at a time. The back jets were fine, but impossible to really enjoy with the bottom half of my body fitting so poorly. So, I still like the concept, but it didn't fit me in this tub.
The lounge was the only dealbreaker, but I had some minor quibbles with other things:
* The hand/wrist jets, like the lounge, were apparently placed with someone 6' or taller in mind, because I had to lean far forward in any corner seat to get my hands over them. The only good hand/wrist action I found was in the corner with calves/glutes action going, where I could put my hands in front of those glute jets and that felt good.
* The only controls for turning pumps on/off were at the main control panel, unlike some spas I've seen that have buttons for that that can be controlled from other seats as well.
* On the jets that can be adjusted by twisting the covers, like the neck jets, some were "sticky", meaning they didn't turn easy and lacked any texture to make it easier to get a grip. When I asked the salesguy about this and whether there was some maintenance trick to make them spin easy again, he sort of denied any problem and said they're supposed to be that way so they don't accidentally turn due to accidental bumps. I didn't press the issue, but it was obvious that some turned easy (not just from incidental contact) while others didn't, so that's a problem that I could see being very annoying if I had no way to fix it.
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After wet-testing the Marquis Epic and the Sundance Maxxus, I would choose the Maxxus if those were my only two choices. The geyser jets on the Epic rocked, but I expect 90% or more of my spa use to be sitting in front of more conventional jets, and for that, I liked the Maxxus seats more. That lounge seat, though...
The salesguy said the lounge seat on the Maxxus and the Cameo are identical, which means even though I think I'd like the whirlpool jets in the Cameo, it's out because I don't want to sacrifice that much space to a lounger I won't fit. The next most likely candidates then, are the Aspen and Optima, which are like the Maxxus and Cameo, respectively, only replacing the lounge seats with another corner and side seat. Unfortunately, when I compare the layouts in the brochure (or online), the Aspen and Optima don't *only* change the layout where the lounge seats would go. That's unfortunate because without wet testing, I can't tell if I'd like those different corner seats as much as the ones I already know I liked in the Maxxus, and I have yet to find somewhere to wet test any Sundance model besides the Maxxus. First-world problems, right?
The salesguy came up with some unflattering things to say about the Caldera Cantabria when I mentioned that was one I'd like to wet test, but I don't know if that was just salesmanship or accurate knocks against the Cantabria.
I may have to expand the range of how far I'm willing to drive for wet tests, but next up on my wish list are the Optima, Aspen, and Cameo (in case the salesguy was wrong about the lounge), and if I can find one, a Cantabria.
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I think the sales guy is really trying to sell you the maxxus(sundance's most expensive tub). The cantabria is a great tub and a good tub to add to your wet test list. I would always be weary of someone having negative things to say about brand that's considered to be on of the top tier brands. The lounge in it and the cameo also are not the same. The back have totally different jets. Not only are they different, but the cameo lounge have a lot more of them. Those particular jets are also my favorite sundance jets.
The cameo lounge also have hip jets. The leg and foot jets in them are pretty much the same.The whirlpool jet placement in the maxxus is pretty much the same as the optima. I found that placement to be distracting. Also, the three in the footwell of the cameo are slightly larger and more powerful than the whirlpool jet up top on the optima, cameo and maxxus.
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It's proving difficult to find places to wet test every model I want to wet test, but I at least found a Cameo that's only an hour or so away. The store also has a Hot Spring Grandee filled, so while that wasn't really on my list yet, I'll try it since it's there. Looking over the Grandee specs again, they mention three "jetstream" jets "that’s two times as powerful as a standard hydromassage jet" - one in a lower back position, and two that look like they're for feet. I don't know how they compare to Marquis geyser jets or Sundance whirlpool jets, but I'll find out. The rest of the layout looks okay, and I don't miss a lounge based on my experience so far, so maybe the Grandee will be a surprise contender. The Moto-massage looks neat in pictures, but so do lounges.
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The moto-massage is really nice. It's my favorite thing about the highlife line. I wet tested a couple of tubs from hotspring. The grandee wasn't one of them. The tub right under it is the envoy, and I did wet test that one. It has the same whirlpool jets as the grandee, but they don't compare to the geyser jets in the marquis. They aren't even as powerful as the ones in the cameo's footwell. For me, they were on par with the ones in the optima and maxxus which isn't a bad thing. You have some really great choices lined up. I'm sure you will be very happy with either one.
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Yesterday I was able to go for that wet test of a Sundance Cameo and Hot Springs Grandee (regular, not NXT). Of the four I've wet tested now (Epic, Maxxus, Cameo, Grandee), Cameo has moved to the top of the list. I would still like to wet test an Optima and Cantabria if I can find them, but I haven't found either of those filled, so the Cameo may end up winning by default. On to the specifics:
Grandee
This was not the NXT model, but it's my understanding most if not all of the difference between Hot Springs "Highlife" and "Highlife NXT" are in exterior cosmetic touches, not the massage action, so as far as the wet part of the test, no difference to worry about.
I found the Grandee, and the Hot Springs line in general (at least the "Highlife" series) to have the most satisfying visual aethetics. I like the way they do lights better, including the ability to set different groups of light to different colors at the same time. I'm guessing it looks pretty neat at night, though I only saw it in bright store lighting. I like the water feature of three arcing spouts better than the flat cascade waterfall on other spas. The removable LCD control pad that you can just use wherever and let float in the water is really neat - I wish all spas had that. There was an empty Envoy NXT right next to it, and that look on the exterior does appeal to me. If I could take all these features and put the on my top choice spa, I would, but they are the kinds of bells and whistles that complement more important needs, and my more important needs are all about the massage quality and variety.
As far it's hydrotherapy qualities, I wouldn't say that the Grandee was unsatisfactory, just that it didn't appeal to me personally as much as the Cameo. The unique jet that Hot Springs boast is the "Moto-Massage", that moves up and down your back. The Grandee had two of these, and though I read that they're at different heights to hit different parts (or suit different people), I can't say I noticed much difference between the two seats. It was a little different from any other seat in other spas, and I liked that novelty, but it didn't feel so amazing that I'd expect to keep returning to that feature once the novelty wore off. I could also see in person, better than in any pictures or video, how the parts moved back there. I have no real reason to expect they'd suffer from fast wear and tear, but the idea of a jet with moving parts in water makes me suspect they'd be more prone to problems or failure than stationary jets. Beyond the moto-massage, the Grandee didn't have much to target feet or legs, and what it did have wasn't particularly strong. As I established early on, I'm looking for strong. There was also a more conventional seat in one corner with lots of back jets - the kind of arrangement I often like - but I found the action to be sort of narrow and prickly compared to similar arrangements in other kinds of spas.
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Cameo
There was much to like, but I'll start this time with the negatives:
* There's a single whirlpool jet under the cool-down seat. I wasn't sure if I never found the right combo of valve position, or that's just how it is, but its max power was much less than the whirlpool jets for the feet. Based on all the other jets and positions in the tub, though, I didn't feel likely to need this one jet much anyway, so it's a nitpick at most.
* The waterfall was inconsistent, sometimes not flowing the way it should even with that valve all the way open. That's a cosmetic problem, not massage, but nonetheless made me question the reliability of that feature.
* One of the small knobs (not either of the big diverters) was not seated properly, so I couldn't get it re-seated or really use it. The sales rep said someone else would have to check or replace it (since she wasn't sure how to), so that gave me another reason to wonder if knobs and such might be prone to break or malfunction, and wonder how much effort and expense would be involved in fixing them.
* The control panel is primitive compared to the removable HotSpring wireless pads. It's enough to get the job done, but the display is completely unimpressive, not terribly easy to read (at least in full lighting), and there are no pump or other control buttons by other seats, so every adjustment (not counting diverter valves) requires coming over to lean over and use that control panel.
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Cameo wet test continued...
Now the good stuff:
* Those three foot jets (as vouched for by orlando1) were strong and satisfying. I had no way to measure, but subjectively speaking, I don't think they were quite as strong as the Marquis "geyser" jets, and definitely not as powerful as the rowing jets (or whatever they're called) in the old Maxxus that I referenced in the original post, but they were still plenty powerful and arranged in a way I could find multiple uses for them. Most obviously, they were great on feet, whether positioned in the seat directly opposite, or in opposite corners where I could still get feet in front of at least one of them. I could sit to aim those jets at my lower back, but with all the other back massage options in the spa - both firm and gentle - I double I'd do that much.
* The surprise use I found for those foot jets was to stretch out and brace sideways in front of them, so with all three jets hitting, it was like a full-leg (and hip) massage on the side nearest the jets. For the other leg, I just flipped direction. I don't think it's an intended or designed use per se, but having discovered it, I can say there's no other spa I've been in that had anything quite like it. (Or if it did, I didn't discover it.)
* I expected to be disappointed by the lounge after my experience with the Maxxus lounge. Thus, I was pleasantly surprised. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a perfect fit, but the floating away effect was much less, and especially with jets on gentle, I could imagine spending time relaxing in the lounge instead of fighting it. I think it helped that the Cameo lounge does not have another corner seat beyond the feet, so there's less empty space to go floating away to. I'm not sure if I'm right, but the lounge seemed fitted to a slightly shorter human than in the Maxxus, which is good for a short human like me. Same for the wrist jets where present - they didn't seem a far reach like in the Maxxus.
* The cool-down seat sat higher in the water compared to most cool-down seats I've seen, which is actually lives up to the name of a seat you can cool down in, while keeping the legs in.
* The side seat opposite the cool down had some gentle back action. Nothing spectacular, but a nice mellow alternative to all that strong jet action when I need a break.
* The two corner seats offer variations on good back and neck massage, as well as calf jets. The jet strength in those seats ranges from strong enough to almost push you out if you aren't braced, to a back-ful of gentle massage.
* The step/seat right in front of the control panel doesn't have any jets on the seat, but it's the best place to sit for focused foot action with those three whirlpool jets that are on the opposite side.
* Another surprise feature that could make my final decision harder were the speakers. I'd basically decided a stereo upgrade was an easy way to save some money since most speakers I've seen would be drowned out by pumps and jets, but these speakers were placed adjacent to each pillow, so with music going, I could actually hear it pretty good when I relaxed into the lounge or either corner seat. The sound quality was good (for a spa). I just don't know if it was $1500 good, or how speakers would hold up to so much weather and water. I don't want a bitchin' sound system that craps out in a couple years that would cost hundreds to fix or replace. Does anyone know the endurance of these, or are they still too new to have a good idea?
The two models on my wet test wish list that I haven't been able to find are the Sundance Optima, and Caldera Cantabria. There was an empty Optima on the floor yesterday, so I could at least see that much. Comparing it to the Maxxus and Cameo, I'm sure I could be very happy in an Optima. The foot dome is like the one in the Maxxus, and would be a major advantage compared to something like the Grandee, *but* it's a downgrade compared to the 3 whirlpool jets of the Cameo. (Not a downgrade for everyone, but for my taste.) The Cantabria is probably bigger (and more expensive) than I need, but it was one of the first high-end models to catch my eye when I started researching, so it's always been on my list. (That "Euphoria" jet intrigues me.) I'm not ready to declare my search over, but the Cameo is in the lead.
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That's a great informative write up. It would be very helpful for people in search for similar high end tubs. Your experience mostly mirrors mine. The only difference was, I wet tested the envoy instead of the the grandee. For me, the first of the higher end tubs I wet tested was the envoy. Man talk about eye candy! Those hotspring highlife/nxt tubs are just visually stunning! I loved the removable touch controls. I also really liked the moto-massage. But all of the other seats were just "meh" to me and was disappointed in the rest of the jet options. The looks just didn't line up with the enjoyment.
My first wet test of sundance was the optima, and it was at that point all of the hotspring options I wet tested was pushed toward the bottom. It was my top choice until I wet tested the cameo. After not having a whole lot of success with loungers, I really didn't too much care for the cameo, but my wife was insistence about wet testing it because she really wanted a lounger. And boy am I glad I did. For me it came down to would I like the lounger more than the second best seat in the optima. Not only that, but the second corner seat combination of jets were different than any seat in the optima and it too was better than the second best seat in the optima. But what was really the deciding factor for me(all of the main seats in the optima and cameo were very enjoyable) was the whirlpool foot jets in the cameo and the foot dome in the optima.
One thing I would like to ask, did you figure out the air control for the smaller whirlpool jet in the cool down seat was actually on the opposite side of the tub and full power was to turn the second diverter valve all the was toward the second captain seat. For me, that jet isn't as strong as the foot jets, but still plenty powerful. On the lounger, I thinks it's the closet thing as a one size fits all lounger of all the ones I've encountered. I'm 6'1" and it's long enough that my feet wont reach the foot jets at the end unless I slump down. So I can easily see it being long enough for anyone up to 6'4" or even a little taller.
As for as the minor issues, it may be a case of the tub in the store being poked and prodded on, because I have no issues with the valves or diverters. Also my waterfall is working flawlessly and able to dial it in as much as I want with consistency. But I agree with your other minor quibbles. That control panel looks as if it should have been upgraded years ago. It looks primitive compared to other top brands.
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Not only that, but the second corner seat combination of jets were different than any seat in the optima and it too was better than the second best seat in the optima.
Yeah, I noticed that, too. I couldn't wet test the Optima, but I could see that the differences were more than just where the lounge seat goes in the Cameo. Both corner seats int the Cameo were good enough that I figured even if the lounge didn't turn into my favorite, I'd still have two great seats plus those foot jets. I haven't given up on finding an Optima to wet test, but at this point, I'll be surprised if it would knock the Cameo off as reigning top choice.
One thing I would like to ask, did you figure out the air control for the smaller whirlpool jet in the cool down seat was actually on the opposite side of the tub and full power was to turn the second diverter valve all the was toward the second captain seat.
Sort of. With the saleswoman's help, I got that jet to come on with that diverter valve all the way as you describe, but either it was weaker than I expected, or it still wasn't on all the way somehow. I suspected the latter, but didn't find any way to increase that jet's output.
On the lounger, I thinks it's the closet thing as a one size fits all lounger of all the ones I've encountered. I'm 6'1"[...]
I'm not an expert, but most problems I've either heard of or experienced with loungers boil down to either body composition or height - sometimes both. I'm fairly lean, so I don't have the problem of floating too easily just based on my body composition. I'm short, though, so at 5'7", its obvious to me that the loungers I've tried skew taller. I'm guessing that's generally true, too, but can only speak for the ones I personally tested. Even the Cameo felt fitted to someone taller than me - like the low 6-foot range you're in - but unlike the others, it wasn't such a bad fit that I felt like I would float away or have to brace so much that I couldn't even enjoy it. In other words, I agree with you that it was the closest I've seen to a "one size fits all" lounger. It wasn't perfect for my size, but felt more accomodating even outside the "perfect" range. I have no idea if that would hold true for the too-tall crowd.
It's reassuring to hear you haven't had problems with valves, diverters, and waterfall. I figure floor models take more of a beating. The saleswoman said they have a sale on floor models coming up, but there was enough wear and tear on this one I think I'd pass on that option.
Regarding the control panel, I figure the "SunSmart Wi-fi" option might compensate a bit by allowing control from a smart-phone. It's not quite as snazzy as a dedicated floating remote like Hot Spring has, but it's not a bad feature. I still have no idea how much that option costs, though, so sticker shock might change my opinion on that.
Can I ask when and where you got your Cameo, orlando? I'm guessing from the name that you're in Florida, but you never know - maybe you're a big Orlando Bloom fan. ;)
One other update... I took to Caldera's FB page to see if they can help me track down a Cantabria within driving distance to wet test, since I had no luck on my own. No luck yet, but someone from Caldera did respond and say they'd contact local dealers and see what they could find out, so maybe that will lead somewhere. It's the only one left on my list that I think has a chance to bump the Cameo (even though I'll test an Optima if I can find one), but there's no way I'd choose it without a wet test, so my decision is feeling closer to made.
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That's a great informative write up. It would be very helpful for people in search for similar high end tubs.
Thanks for that, by the way. Your feedback has been very helpful to me, too. When I started this thread, it was just with that question about the old Sundance jets, but the more general interest stuff is probably in the wet test reviews, plus your feedback, that came later. I think when this has played out, I'll edit the more general interest parts out into a new thread with a more descriptive title to suit it. I could pull just from my parts, but if you're cool with it, I'll incorporate your feedback, too. Thanks to character count limits, it'll have to be posted as a series of posts.
I found an easier way. I was able to just modify the original post, including the title. Yay!
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Hi Socal Monkey, just saw your posts, I too was looking for a large tub with powerfull jets and hydro therapy, It's weird how simular our searches have been. The wife and I wet tested all the same tubs that is on your list Did you try Hydrospa in Canoga Park? They had a Cantabria tester there in July.
We also tried the Epic in Camarillo and we're even offered a great deal on a base model for $8,995 after talking to them at the home show at the fairgrounds anyway the wife and I finally pulled the trigger and ordered an Artesian Isla Margarita Elite, it's a big tub, 108 x 91, 67 jet, 4 pumps, lots of power, has direct flow control, lounger, captain seats, etc. I'm 5' 10" 190, the wife I s 5'4' 120, and we both had no problem in the lounger. You should at least give it a look. The dealer in Oxnard did not have the Margarita to test , but had an Antiqua Elite that we tested which is smaller but very much simular in set up I priced the maxxus, Jacuzzi 495, and Grandee, the Margarita is thousands less. Good luck we can't wait til it gets here.
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If you are looking at Sundance are you planning to wet-test Jacuzzi as well?
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It's weird how simular our searches have been. The wife and I wet tested all the same tubs that is on your list Did you try Hydrospa in Canoga Park? They had a Cantabria tester there in July.
That was the first place I tested. I'd seen a Cantabria (filled) there a couple years earlier when I browsed but wasn't ready to buy, so I didn't wet test. When I called to see if they still had one when the new search began, they had just sold it, so I barely missed it. When I asked if they expected to get a new one for the floor, the first answer was yes, in about three weeks. When I checked 3-4 weeks later, the answer was no, and they weren't planning to anymore. That's where I tested the Maxxus, though, since that's what they had filled. (They had a couple others filled that I wasn't interested in, so I didn't wet test those.)
We also tried the Epic in Camarillo
Us, too. Sounds we almost could have bumped into each other with the timing of our searches, but we had to wait a couple extra days to go in because the one we tested was still pending arrival and set up in the showroom. We might have been the first testers. Anyway, as described in an earlier post, I loved the geyser jets, but was not wowed by the rest. (This was the only test my wife joined me for. I've encouraged her to join for all, of course, but we both know it's more for me than her, so she's told me to find one I like.)
...finally pulled the trigger and ordered an Artesian Isla Margarita Elite...The dealer in Oxnard did not have the Margarita to test , but had an Antiqua Elite that we tested which is smaller but very much simular in set up
Those weren't on my radar, but now that you've put them there, I'll have a look online – maybe there will be another wet test added to my list. Curse you for adding more work if I don't get it, or many thanks if that ends up being the spa of my dreams. Sitting in spa after spa is just so taxing. ;)
If you are looking at Sundance are you planning to wet-test Jacuzzi as well?
I had no plans to, but mainly because my list of prospects grew so fast early on that I just stopped looking for more to add. If I can find a convenient place locally to wet test, though, maybe I'll have a look. So, you can share some of those curses or thanks I just gave to JA-Newbie.
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I had no plans to, but mainly because my list of prospects grew so fast early on that I just stopped looking for more to add. If I can find a convenient place locally to wet test, though, maybe I'll have a look. So, you can share some of those curses or thanks I just gave to JA-Newbie.
If you decide to wet-test the Jacuzzi tubs, I'd suggest trying out the J-480 (lounger) and/or the J-470 (no lounger), based on the other hot tubs on your short list.
We did a similar search to you. We wet-tested the J-480 because there were no J-470's filled in our area. The lounger was the best I have found for not floating out of, but I'm only 5'1" and I still had to brace myself to stay in it, so we decided to go ahead with the J-470 instead.
It arrives tomorrow! We won't be filling it right away (sob...) because we still have a lot of work happening in our backyard, but hopefully by the weekend we'll be up and running.
Good luck with your search! :)
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How much did you pay for J-470?
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That's a great informative write up. It would be very helpful for people in search for similar high end tubs.
Thanks for that, by the way. Your feedback has been very helpful to me, too. When I started this thread, it was just with that question about the old Sundance jets, but the more general interest stuff is probably in the wet test reviews, plus your feedback, that came later. I think when this has played out, I'll edit the more general interest parts out into a new thread with a more descriptive title to suit it. I could pull just from my parts, but if you're cool with it, I'll incorporate your feedback, too. Thanks to character count limits, it'll have to be posted as a series of posts.
I found an easier way. I was able to just modify the original post, including the title. Yay!
Yes of course, glad I could at least be of little help. Your final list includes great tubs. I sure the tub you ends up with will bring your many years of enjoyment.
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I dropped by a local Jacuzzi dealer today hoping to find a J-480 or J-470 I could wet test, or even a J-495 if there happened to be one filled. I was nearby anyway because of an unrelated appointment, so I brought my suit just in case, but wasn't counting on wet testing since I hadn't called ahead. They didn't have any of the three I came looking for, but they had a J-385 and Hot Spring Envoy warm and ready, and a J-575 not warm, but filled. I knew enough about Jacuzzi to know their models were grouped into number series, but I hadn't even heard of their 500 series.
Hot Springs Envoy
I tested the Envoy just because I hadn't been in one, and it held no surprises after my test of the Grandee. It was visually great and I liked some of the interior sculpting (like places for arms to rest), but the jets were underwhelming. The lounge, like many others, seemed sized to a taller person, but I did like a little ledge it had for shorter people to brace feet on instead of having to stretch out to brace. That didn't make me like the lounge, but at least it had a feature to make the seat usable without being over 6-ft. tall.
Jacuzzi J-385
I got in the J-385 not expecting much, but really liked the back action in every seat. The foot dome jets were what I think of as "tickle" jets – as most foot dome jets have been. They stimulate, but don't really massage, and for my taste, I'd rather have a stronger jet on my feet (no surprise if you've read previous posts) so I didn't care for these. A couple seats had calf jets which weren't "tickle" style, but they didn't do much for me. They didn't bother me, but maybe I'm just not a calf jet guy, because none I've tested have made much of an impression. The control panel was functional, and that's about it - nothing fancy, not even a reversible display (unless I missed that) to read from inside the tub.
There were no "power jets" like the Marquis Epic or the foot jets on a Cameo, but all the back stuff was great. A lot of the massage seemed more dynamic, like pulsating or moving, so it was kind of like the "moto-massage" of Hot Spring models, but in more seats and with more variety. One (or maybe two) seats hit my lats (side muscles near armpits) in a way I liked and can't remember feeling in other models, so that was all good.
The J-385 had a couple big diverter valves like most models I've seen, but instead of add'l smaller control valves like I usually see, this had several toggle switches that basically toggled from max power to a gentler massage for whatever seat is closest. I think I liked this more than the usual twist valve, because if I want to change power, I don't usually need fine increments in those controls - I'm always twisting that thing from one extreme to the other. Simple toggles do the same thing easier, and also seemed easier at a glance to look around the tub and know what was "on" or "off" instead of, "Does that slider all the way left mean it's full on, or...?" If I'm done with full power, it seems like the toggle would take me down to a comfortable level, and if I wanted gentler still, practically every jet was twist-adjustable to further restrict the flow and go even more gentle. Plus, the big diverters can still be manipulated for finer adjustments.
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Jacuzzi J-575
I got in the J-575 still cold. It wasn't shivering cold, but the water was probably in mid-80s and climbing, which felt cold compared to the spas I'd just sat in. (Again, I gave no notice, so I wouldn't expect them to keep everything warm just in case.) I spent the first couple minutes just adjusting to the temp, but then I settled in and started testing.
Wow.
There was a lot I liked about this spa, even cold. Like the J-385, it gave good back, so Jacuzzi and me get along in that department. It had everything I liked about the J-385 – good back, dynamic massage, hit spots other spas haven't, toggle switches – and more.
It has a pair of foot jets positioned much like the Sundance Cameo, below the lounge. For sheer power on those jets, which is a feature I've been looking for all along, I still have to give the edge to Cameo. However, I spent enough time holding my feet in front of them, from directly across and from opposite corners, that I don't think I'd end up unhappy. They were stronger than any "tickler" foot dome I've tested, and still strong enough to do the thing where I stretch out for a side-leg massage. (In one direction, I can do that using some calf jets as a hip jet, but alas, the other corner doesn't have that when I flip around.) If I could put the Cameo foot jets there, or Marquis geyser jets, I totally would, but are they a dealbreaker for this spa? Totally not.
The coup de e'tat... coup de grass...cherry on top of this thing was the lounge seat. To this point, the Cameo was the closest I got to fitting right in a lounge. Good enough, I'm sure, especially combined with other features I liked, but not perfect. The lounge in the J-575 fit me like a glove that was at most one size too big. Sure, someone could probably do better if they took a body mold and sculpted it to me, but in the world of off-the-shelf spas, I doubt I could do any better. (For reference, I'm 5'7", about 160lbs., lean-ish.) With all the lounge jets full on, I could relax without any bracing, and my feet actually landed where I could get the benefit of the foot jets, which have been too distant to enjoy in any other lounges. I'm not exactly sure how those foot jets are arranged, but if I'm remembering right, I could get one jet working the heel while a pulsating jet hit the balls of my feet. With that combo, and varying the strength with switches and diverters, I was pretty content with that and not really thinking about missing a powerful geyser on my feet. Plus, those stronger feet jets down below are still there if I want them later. The leg jets on the lounge weren't bad, but like always, I gotta move my legs back and forth to reap the benefit. Skinny legs, what can I say? Great back (and neck) action in the lounge. The hand/wrist jets were also positioned just right for me, which is a first.
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Jacuzzi J-575 (Continued...)
With the size and layout of the J-575, the lounge does not take up an entire side, so there's still three corner seats, all of which I liked. I even liked the two side seats. The cool down seat has no jets per se, but it's the perfect spot to stretch out the legs to get both feet right in front of foot jets on the opposite side (beneath lounge). The other side seat has only a pair of jets, but they're one of the dynamic type so it feels more interesting than just two jets of water/air boring a hole in your back.
The control panel is very nice - almost as nice as Hot Springs, except you can't remove it to race against your rubber duckie. I think there's a smartphone app you can use to control stuff, but I don't know if that's standard or an extra. It's always hard to gauge the lights in brightly-lit showrooms during the day, but as far as I can tell, the LEDs won't disappoint. Judging more from pictures on Google images than my in-person impression, there's a bar with embedded LEDs that circles the entire interior, so that looks nifty. I don't give a whole lot of sh**s about the LEDs relative to other features, but at least in pictures, this one might give Hot Springs some competition in that category.
Speaking of which, the J-575 doesn't have a triple spout water feature (like Hot Springs), but it does have two waterfalls on opposite (raised) sides. These were the first waterfalls I've seen that I could imagine having some purpose beyond cosmetic. Because of those raised sides, the one above the side seat with the two jets (remember two paragraphs ago?) was in a good spot to cascade over my neck and shoulders while in that seat. The gentle pouring of water was very pleasant, but other waterfall features I've seen are too short to do that except for maybe a couple inches of shoulders poking out if I duck down in front of it. The waterfall is controllable independent of those two jets, so they can be combined or done one at a time. The other waterfall cascades over the filters, so it's not great for sitting in front of, but if you like playing Poseidon like me, if you stand just right and spread your arms, you can position your hands under both cascades at once, enjoying a gentle hand massage while reminding all within earshot that you are master of all things aquatic. See - even waterfalls kiss my hands!
Wait, was that out loud? Anyway...
The exterior was also the nicest I've seen, edging out my previous favorite (in the "exterior" category), the Hot Springs NXT line. I think it's the same for both in the 500 series (the J-585 is the no-lounge, open seating version, I think), but instead of the usual siding look, it has sort of a wicker-looking weave (but isn't actual wicker, which would be terrible, of course) and very cool lighting in the corners. Google it, because I can't describe it well.
I guess I have a new leading contender, but the decision still isn't made. I've seen more than one spa that I think I can be very happy with, so now I have to crunch numbers and figure out how much spa I can afford after I budget for designing and preparing the area to install it. As of tonight, I want a J-575, but I've changed my mind a few times already, so who knows? When the numbers get real, maybe I'll be prowling the boards for soft tub ideas.
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Thanks for the detailed reviews! If you find a dealer with a filled J-480 you should give it a try. Probably a little less than the J-575. The high-backed functional/not-just-for-cosmetics waterfall was probably what sold me on the J-470. Years ago I stayed at a resort in Mexico with a beautiful spa and they had a hydrotherapy circuit with "swan neck" fountains that arced up and hit my shoulders just right. I was reminded of that hydrotherapy when I sat in the waterfall seat in the J-480/470.
How much did you pay for J-470?
I paid $15K all in. In Canadian dollars and that included a "free" Weber BBQ (promo they were running at the time.) With SmartSeal, without stereo. Was supposed to be Platinum/Silverwood but wound up with Platinum/Roasted Chestnut... as per my other thread... :o
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I paid $15K all in. In Canadian dollars and that included a "free" Weber BBQ (promo they were running at the time.) With SmartSeal, without stereo. Was supposed to be Platinum/Silverwood but wound up with Platinum/Roasted Chestnut... as per my other thread... :o
Hi Amy,
Just curious where in Canada you are? We are in the Vancouver area in B.C.
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I paid $15K all in. In Canadian dollars and that included a "free" Weber BBQ (promo they were running at the time.) With SmartSeal, without stereo. Was supposed to be Platinum/Silverwood but wound up with Platinum/Roasted Chestnut... as per my other thread... :o
Hi Amy,
Just curious where in Canada you are? We are in the Vancouver area in B.C.
We're in Ontario, near Toronto.
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SoCal Monkey,
Thank you very much for the excellent reviews. Could you please help me with the couple questions:
1. On J-385 what was your experience with the jets installed in the seat directly across the control panel, middle seat to the left of the control panel and seat to the right of the control panel. All these seats have 2-3 bigger jets in various configurations.
2. Comparing between Marquis Epic's seats (but not the lounger) and J-385's seats what would you prefer and why?
Thank you very much.
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Great write up! You have some very serious tubs on your list. So I can say congrats ahead of time lol. Either of those are going to be a fantastic choice.
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Thanks for the detailed reviews! If you find a dealer with a filled J-480 you should give it a try.
I will if I can find one, which still seems likely since there are two more Jacuzzi dealers if I expand my driving range out another hour or so. About those waterfalls, it's not like I would choose a spa based on them, but since practically every spa has them, the stood out from the others in serving some massage purpose, not merely cosmetic. I thought that might be the case just looking at pics of the J-480/470, which my experience in the J-575 seems to confirm. No Poseidon pose, though. The 575 has some *very* nice eye appeal, but just comparing pictures of seating and layouts, I don't expect the 400-series to be much of a step down in the hydrotherapy department, which is my biggest priority.
Sorry to hear about your color choice mix-up, but it sounds like you got an awesome spa. Enjoy!
SoCal Monkey,
Thank you very much for the excellent reviews. Could you please help me with the couple questions:
1. On J-385 what was your experience with the jets installed in the seat directly across the control panel, middle seat to the left of the control panel and seat to the right of the control panel. All these seats have 2-3 bigger jets in various configurations.[/quote]
I soaked in three tubs yesterday, so I can't promise I'm not confusing impressions, but combining memories with some labelled jet diagrams, I'll answer like this:
* The pair of jets directly opposite the control panel are "FX2 Spinners", which makes them the same as the pair I really enjoyed under the waterfall in the J-575. The spinning action gives kind of a rolling massage (that "dynamic" action I was talking about) that I liked. These, or jets like these, were the ones I thought were comparable to Hot Springs "moto-massage" if you ever tried those. A single pair probably didn't cover quite as much range as the moto-massage, but the 385 has another pair of those vertically stacked in the corner seat left of the panel (along with some other jets), making for more places and overall range to use it. That seat opposite the control panel is also where the waterfall is. It's not elevated like the 400 or 500 series, but I suppose you get get a little extra neck action out of it.
* Middle seat to the left of CP... I can see from diagrams that the bottom two are "FX2", but I can't match that up to a memory, like whether they're static or moving. The smaller jet above it is a "FX Spinner", so a smaller version of the "FX2 Spinner" described in the previous paragraph.
*Corner seat to the right of CP... The three bigger jets are "MX". I don't think they spin or pulse or anything like that, but if they're the ones I'm thinking of, you can manually adjust the nozzles inside to point where you want. There's not a huge range of motion there, but it allows for some fine tuning. The two above it are smaller neck jets, nothing fancy.
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(Long-winded answers continued...)
Although my exact seat memory has faded already, my impression at the time was that there were no bad seats in either the J-385 or J-575. You know how you can usually tell a seat or two you're unlikely to choose for yourself unless you're letting guests have the "good" seats? I didn't feel that way about any of these. The plainest were the cool-down seat with no jets, but even a cool-down seat is handy some of the time.
Here's links to where I found those labelled jet diagrams, by the way:
J-385: http://bit.ly/1KIZnln (Page 24 in the PDF manual.)
J-575: http://www.jacuzzi.com/j-500/manual/j-575-hot-tub/
I couldn't find an easy reference about their jet types (names and function) on their web side, but if you can get your hands on a brochure there's a more detailed page with good pictures and descriptions (in marketing-speak, of course).
2. Comparing between Marquis Epic's seats (but not the lounger) and J-385's seats what would you prefer and why?
The Epic was the first one I tested, so time and several intervening spas have dimmed that memory, but put into context of all I have wet tested since, I would sum up the Epic this way: I loved the geyser jets. That kind of jet was something I set out to find (see how I started off this thread) and the geysers came closest of any to satisfying that craving. (Cameo foot jets were a close second.) Tastes vary, so I'm not saying the Epic would be a disappointment to anyone else (or any of these tubs I'm describing, for that matter), but aside from those two jets, the Epic did not make a lasting impression on me. Looking at a picture of the layout again, I'm pretty sure I thought the corner seat opposite the panel was nice. I was a floater in the lounge, and the corners on the control panel side were the kind I wouldn't choose unless I was letting guests use the "good" ones.
Thank you very much.
You're welcome, and thanks to everyone's appreciative comments. It's nice to feel like I can share this experience to some other people's benefit, too. I know that before I de-lurked, always appreciated as much detail as possible. Wet testing has been the biggest factor in identifying possible choices, but other detailed reviews and feedback here were also important in even deciding what to put on my wet test wish list. Until 2-3 days ago, Jacuzzi wasn't even on my short list, and now it's a leading contender, and that's thanks to a couple people saying "Hey, if you liked this, you might also like..." So, thanks back, y'all.
[Side note: I bet most people are blissfully unaware there's a 5500 character limit on these posts, but I get reminded almost every time. Just imagine how much I suck at Twitter.]
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You're welcome, and thanks to everyone's appreciative comments. It's nice to feel like I can share this experience to some other people's benefit, too. I know that before I de-lurked, always appreciated as much detail as possible. Wet testing has been the biggest factor in identifying possible choices, but other detailed reviews and feedback here were also important in even deciding what to put on my wet test wish list. Until 2-3 days ago, Jacuzzi wasn't even on my short list, and now it's a leading contender, and that's thanks to a couple people saying "Hey, if you liked this, you might also like..." So, thanks back, y'all.
Jacuzzi was where my search started when I saw the J-480 waterfalls at a Home Show I was working at. I always swore I wouldn't spend that much money so we looked at quite a few other options, some cheaper, some around the same, and some that were even more money. Kept coming back to the Jacuzzi so that was the one we ended up with.
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Add the Jacuzzi J-470 to the list of what I've wet tested.
My wet testing quest stalled out for a month or so, not because I changed my mind, but because I was reaching the point where I felt like other details need to get addressed and budgeted for, in order to be in a position to make a final choice and negotiate a price. I know where the spa will go, but it's nowhere close to "ready to install". Besides the basics of a slab and whatever electrical work is needed, I have to figure out the scope and cost of the rest of the project, like putting in patio, shade/privacy features, and so on. I have an overall budget in mind, so the amount I can spend on just the spa could be affected by the projected costs of the rest. The good news is that I've now tested more than one tub that I think I'd be very happy with, so I'm not locked into any one model as the only one I think I'll like. At the range I've been looking at (see subject line), I haven't thought any model was junk, so this has just been about trying to find the best match for my tastes, which means getting pretty nitpicky about things like jet strength and how each seat fits (or doesn't fit) *me*. With all those caveats in mind, and having wet tested about a dozen models now (I haven't written up ones I knew were out of the running), the ones I find my mind wandering back to the most and picturing in my backyard are the Sundance Cameo, and practically every Jacuzzi I've tried - 385, 575, and most recently, the 470.
All of my Jacuzzi wet tests have been almost accidental. When I started looking at this product range, you have to draw the line somewhere, so Jacuzzi was just one of the ones that wasn't on my list - no particular reason. As I saw more Jacuzzi models mentioned and someone suggested I add them to my list, I decided to look up the nearest dealer and there was one close, so might as well. I went in hoping to test some 400-series, but all they had filled was a 385 and one I'd never even heard of yet, the 575, so might as well. Both made good impressions on me, even though the 575 water temp was in the 80's. (I didn't call ahead.) After the 575, I really wanted to test a 480 to compare lounges, because the 575 had been the first lounge seat that fit me well - not just tolerably well. I still couldn't find a 480, but for a longer drive, a different store of the same dealer had a 470, so…might as well. Here's my notes on the 470:
Jacuzzi J-470
I numbered the seats this time to try to make more sense of my notes. Going clockwise starting from the control panel, I'm calling the first corner seat left of the control panel #1, next corner is #2, seat under the waterfalls is #3, Next corner is #4, middle seat with one jet is #5, and the last corner seat to the right of the control panel is #6.
Seat 1: Spinning jets provided good kneading action on the lower back and for me, lower sides. There was one strike against I can't remember ever noticing in any other seat, Jacuzzi or otherwise, and that was that the pillow seemed to be in a place that was uncomfortable against my upper back when I leaned back. (I'm 5'7".) However, I don't use these pillows very often anyways, so the problem was easily solved by taking the pillow out. It wasn't super easy to put the pillow back in, but this was my first time trying and I didn't ask for help, so I assume that would become easy once I got the feel for it.
Seat 1 1/2: It didn't rate it's own number because it's a jet-less seat, but I thought it worth remembering that the middle seat between 1 & 2 is big enough for someone to sit there if you're looking to fill out max capacity. I've seen a lot of spas where sitting in front of the filters just isn't possible, so this rated a note.
Seat 2: This is the seat that least impresses me in this tub, but I can still see using it. The three main jets are narrowish, strong (at full power), and static, which isn't my favorite kind of jet. They're the kind I think of as "itchy" if I stay in front of them for a long time. However, the perk of these jets is that they're easily re-directed by hand, so there's not much variety to the flow itself (other than making them weaker/stronger with diverters and such), but I found lots of ways to point them at different areas at varying strengths to yield a lot of variety to otherwise boring jets. In a spa devoid of any hand or wrist jets, I also found this to be the best seat for that if I just put my hands behind my back. I believe these jets are also the same type as the foot jets in the 575. For sheer power, they're not close to Marquis' "geyser" jets, or Sundance's "whirlpool" foot jets in the Cameo, but if I didn't have those for comparison, I'd probably think, "Yeah, that's strong for a foot jet."
Seat 3: Two jets looks like a boring seat, but these are big rotational jets, which means good dynamic, kneading massage. They hit my lower back. This is also the waterfall seat, and on the 400-series, the waterfalls are elevated, so they're not as useless massage-wise as the waterfalls that are mostly cosmetic on other spas. Sitting straight up, I found the waterfall massage affect underwhelming, but slouching down just a bit gave it enough room to pour and feel good.
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Jacuzzi J-470 (Continued ...)
Seat 4: My clipboard note on this one was "All over, all at once". It's a lot of jets and a lot of power (turned all the way up), but also nice for hitting a lot of areas more gently with some diverter tweaking. All of these jets (and most on other seats as well) can be dialed down or off by turning the bezel of each jet. At full power, I preferred this seat with a couple of the higher ones turned off. This is the only seat with calf jets. I don't know if it's my leg shape or what, but I have yet to find calf jets in any spa that do anything memorable for me. I usually treat them as lean-forward hand jets.
Seat 5: Not the most exciting seat in the joint, but I won't always want exciting, right? Height-wise, it's in between a full immersion and a cool-down seat, so it's a cooler spot without having to retreat to the full-on cool-down seat with no jets. (I didn't number that one, right in front of the control panel.) The jet is one of those big spinners like in Seat 3, so it gives a kneading massage right in the small of the back.
Seat 6: Take a pair of those big spinners and stack them, then add four "rifling action" jets across the top. That worked for me. Those four across the top are more upper back than shoulders if I sit up, but a slight slouch turns them into shoulder jets. Sitting up, those upper jets hit my lats for an almost wrap-around feel that I can't figure out just looking at the jet diagrams.
Foot Dome: I didn't mention it yet, but it's basically a part of every seat, because every seat can reach it. Besides the massage it provides, it's also a convenient anchor point if the jets are on strong enough to push you out of your seat. I have generally been unimpressed by foot domes because the jets are the narrow static kind that aren't my favorite, especially on feet. I'm not sure whether this one was superior, or it just took me this long to discover a novel way to use them, but I came away liking it.
The outer jets were nothing special or different, but it also has a center vertical jet, marketed as a light diffuser or somesuch. At its weakest strength, it's barely strong enough for a foot to take notice if you put it over it. With the diverters set another way, though (all toward the control panel side), that center column becomes a pleasant place to hold feet. It's not powerful, but the gentle pressure hits more area, so it doesn't tickle or itch.
The novel use I found was that if I suspended myself between corners (hands braced to the sides), over the foot dome, I could rest my feet in front of some corner seat spinners and it was like a lounge seat. The dome jets hit a lot of areas that way, including my butt and legs, while the feet stretch out (especially to seats 1 & 6) for a much better close-up massage than they get hovering right over a dome jet. (The foot jets in the 575 lounge are also spinners - another reason I liked it.)
Wet testing tip (not that anyone asked): Some of my favorite discoveries in all this wet testing come from stretching out sideways and diagonally to find unexpected ways to combine jets. It's a big reason the Cameo has remained high on my list - that one was really good when I stretched out sideways in front of the "foot" jets. When you're wet testing, don't just sit in each seat like you're modeling for the brochure. Slouch, stretch, and move around with different diverter combinations set to see what you might discover that the picture can't tell you.
J-470 Conclusion
If the Jacuzzi 400 or 500 series had 2-3 of those high-powered jets that I originally set out to find when this thread started, I think they'd be the only contender left (budget permitting). They don't have that, but there's a lot I like anyway. More than any other manufacturer, they seem to include more of the kinds of jets I like most, with spinning or otherwise dynamic jets that feel more like massage to me than just varying the number of jets spitting a static stream of water/air wherever they're pointed. I don't know if that means more maintenance headaches down the road because of more moving parts, but it feels great. Where the Cameo lounge was the first lounge that I found the fit acceptable, the only Jacuzzi lounge I've sat in (J-575) was a bona fide good fit. That's why I wish I could try a 480, to see if the lounge really fits the same. Salespeople say yes (or probably), but none have been ablet to track down exact measurements, and I know a few inches difference can have a big impact.
I care most about the feel of what's inside, but among close contenders, the 500 series sure do look nice on the outside, too. Those corner lights on the exterior are cool, and the strip lighting inside looks like it's probably pretty cool at night, even though I can't see for myself. The 575 control panel was excellent (and invertible, for easier reading from the tub), while the 470 panel was good, but not invertible. My comparison feels incomplete without a 480 to wet test, but if I could choose any spa I've tested so far with no budget considerations at all, I'm leaning toward the 575. Budget considerations and further testing could lean me another way, but it's good to have choices.
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It's been so long since I last posted this thread that anyone who followed it has probably moved on, but just in case anyone is still interested, I've put a deposit down on a J-575 and a contractor starts work next week to prep the installation site with slab and electric. My quest was delayed by life getting in the way, but hopefully I'll be soaking in my new hot tub within a couple of weeks. 8)
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Congrats, great tub!!