Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Michael Russell on September 03, 2018, 11:14:46 am
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Hey Folks...
Yes another I am new at this question...
Been looking at tubs the last couple of days. Trying to educate myself. Something that came up during my reading and store visits was water change intervals. It seems most tubs come in around 3 - 4 months depending on usage. Being on a low quality well I will not be able to use my local water source to refill and will have to truck water in. I am told that is around $100 (CAD). With this in mind I have been leaning towards a salt water solution as I am told you are the upwards of a year between water changes helping me reduce expenses a bit.
So a few questions around this...
- Is there decent products or methods to operate traditional chlo/bro with reduce water changes that I should look at?
- I believe that Salt is a little more expensive to operate then Chlo/bro, saving $300 year though on water changes I think salt would be my better option. Thoughts?
- Am I missing any considerations in the puzzle of salt vs chlo/bro that I should be looking at?
The only salt water tub I have had a chance to look at is Lazboy. Specifically the Revive. We sat in the tub dry and its comfortable enough. I am no wowed by the overall product. The insulation specifically just seems like it should be better. The dealer has offered up with out any real work $12k cash(cad) (all in) including delivery and cover lifter. This is on a in stock model. I am sure I can do better on price.
I plan on stopping by Arctic Spa hopefully next week to look at the Klondiker. Trying not to buy into the marketing but I like their insulation scheme. Just seems to make sense to my feeble mind. I don't have any pricing as of yet. Anyone have any Canadian $$'s ideas for Arctic Klondiker?
We do have a Beachcomber store in our small town but they have no salt option. I like there product and the fact its a 10 minute drive though...
For reference sake, we are out near Cobourg ON. Lazboy dealer is in Peterborough, Beachcombers in Cobourg. Heading to arctic in Whitby. I may also drop by Master out in Kitchener next week as I am out that way for work.
Many thanks in advance folks. Feel free to fire me suggestions both as far as salt/chlorine and brands and models.
Cheers,
Mike
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Do you have HotSpring near you. Salt available.
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About 40 minutes away.. Opposite direction of where I normally go but not out of the question for a drive one night this week maybe.
Why Hotspring over Arctic?
Am I on the right track that salt is the better option for me?
---- as I look at it.. Not entirely sure the Belleville store actually has any Hotspring branded tubs. I will call to confirm but there some odd stuff with there website even though Hotspring links to them as my local dealer.
Do you have HotSpring near you. Salt available.
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Whilst the arctic insulation system does work, your pumps and other equipment may not last as long as a full foam spa, as the heat is kept in as opposed to let out like on a full foam spa. think of it as if your car overheats, it breaks down. if your spa overheats, it breaks down.
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What brand(s) would you recommend then?
I am leaning towards salt water but trying to see if that is the right choice. As I read more the two that have popped up are Arctic and HotSprings mentioned previously...
I did sit in a Arctic today (dry). It was far more comfortable then the Lazboy in general although the hip width on some there seats with armrests was to narrow depending on model. Price wise more then I hoped to spend. I can do a wet test, just need to get my family out to Whitby (45 minute drive).
Its about 14k+tax Canadian for the Klondiker for Epic with 3 pumps (epic normally has 5). Including upgraded siding, fancy cover and lifter, some lighting, Spa Boy and delivery. Thats almost $16k with tax... It will need to come down to get me in the Arctic..
Again my I would love to hear more about salt water, and timing on water changes that people have experienced...
Thanks!
Whilst the arctic insulation system does work, your pumps and other equipment may not last as long as a full foam spa, as the heat is kept in as opposed to let out like on a full foam spa. think of it as if your car overheats, it breaks down. if your spa overheats, it breaks down.
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Whilst the arctic insulation system does work, your pumps and other equipment may not last as long as a full foam spa, as the heat is kept in as opposed to let out like on a full foam spa. think of it as if your car overheats, it breaks down. if your spa overheats, it breaks down.
If your pump runs for filtration for 4 hours a day that leaves no heat source to create the warmth for r-value for 20 hours a day. Is the Arctic insulation system really that good?
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I am not tied to the Arctic brand.. It just comes up as a Salt Water option that I am reviewing. That said the Arctic still has a heater that will have to kick in. No the motors will not generate enough waste heat to eliminate that.
My Main question is still salt water over Chlo/Bro and water change requirements...
Whilst the arctic insulation system does work, your pumps and other equipment may not last as long as a full foam spa, as the heat is kept in as opposed to let out like on a full foam spa. think of it as if your car overheats, it breaks down. if your spa overheats, it breaks down.
If your pump runs for filtration for 4 hours a day that leaves no heat source to create the warmth for r-value for 20 hours a day. Is the Arctic insulation system really that good?
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We purchased a hotsprings flash. This is in the lime light series. My wife has very sensitive skin. At the moment I am using bromine. So far her reaction has been quite good the times she has been it. The nice thing is I can add the ace salt water system at anytime. What I like about the flash is it has two jet pumps and a 24 hour circulation pump that injects ozone into the system. Also it has fibre core insulation in the tub which really intrigued me. We are south of Toronto so will see how the hydro bill is in the winter months. So far I have been quite happy with it.
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Thanks Kies1,
Couple questions if you don't mind..
Where did you buy it?
How much did it end up costing?
How much was the salt water option if you decide to get it?
South of Toronto as in Buffalo area or Southern Ontario?
Cheers and thanks!
Mike
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My opinion is that if you are on chlorine, water changes should be made every 3-4 months. If bromine, you should get 4 months, maybe a bit longer, but I would personally stick to 4 month intervals.
With ACE saltwater that Hot Spring offers, Hot Spring states you can go up to 1 year between water changes. I tell my customers 8 months. The reason saltwater can go longer between changes is that you do not get the build up of cyanuric acid as quickly since you are not regularly adding chlorine and it also takes longer to build up the total dissolved solids.
I like ACE and sell quite a bit of it, but less frequent water changes are not one of the features I promote when selling it.
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Many many thanks for taking the time to answer...
So reading like crazy about CYA. My first thought was why would we be putting CYA in out hottubs. It would appear that this is because there are no product available without CYA for hottubs? I wonder if this is true in Canada. Something to add to my research list.
Still need to read more about TDS. This was actually brought up a Jacuzzi Dealer today. That water changes pushing a year will likely result in the TDS getting to high. I understand the theory behind this but need to read a bit more about the science.
What in your mind are the main selling points of Ace over Traditional Chlo/Bro? I centred in on Water change interval to save what appeared to be $360/yr in water changes by going salt. With your time lines that is now only $180/yr. This would cover the cost of the cell (from Arctic anyways, not sure about ACE).
Trying out the Jacuzzi tub today I did like it. Left on my list is to look at Master and HotSpring.
Thanks again!
Mike
My opinion is that if you are on chlorine, water changes should be made every 3-4 months. If bromine, you should get 4 months, maybe a bit longer, but I would personally stick to 4 month intervals.
With ACE saltwater that Hot Spring offers, Hot Spring states you can go up to 1 year between water changes. I tell my customers 8 months. The reason saltwater can go longer between changes is that you do not get the build up of cyanuric acid as quickly since you are not regularly adding chlorine and it also takes longer to build up the total dissolved solids.
I like ACE and sell quite a bit of it, but less frequent water changes are not one of the features I promote when selling it.
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I have a Hotspring Envoy NXT and I waited for the Hotspring ACE System incentive and am so happy we went with the salt system. The water is constantly clear, silky smooth because it is soft water and you do not come out of the tub smelling like chlorine/ chemicals. I was on the fence but after 3 months it was the best decision to go with the Ace option. With the ACE System you will use less chemicals and in turn the total disolved solids will be consodersbly lower than someone using chemical treatment. I would say that is why the need to change the tub water out is less frequent. I do use dichlor as a super chlorinator treatment every week- but it is only 2 teaspoons.
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Thanks Kies1,
Couple questions if you don't mind..
Where did you buy it?
How much did it end up costing?
How much was the salt water option if you decide to get it?
South of Toronto as in Buffalo area or Southern Ontario?
I am south of Toronto and purchased at a pioneer family pools location. Would rather not discuss pricing but was very happy with what I paid. Salt water option I think was an additional 800 to 1000 but do not quote me on that. Looked at jacuzzi as well. Upgrading to the lime light series from hot spot you also get a better warranty. Nicer cabinet, exterior corner lights and it also has 41 jets.
Cheers and thanks!
Mike
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Hey Kies,
I think you tried to reply to the thread but it came up blank. If you got a minute I would love your input!
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks Kies1,
Couple questions if you don't mind..
Where did you buy it?
How much did it end up costing?
How much was the salt water option if you decide to get it?
South of Toronto as in Buffalo area or Southern Ontario?
I am south of Toronto and purchased at a pioneer family pools location. Would rather not discuss pricing but was very happy with what I paid. Salt water option I think was an additional 800 to 1000 but do not quote me on that. Looked at jacuzzi as well. Upgrading to the lime light series from hot spot you also get a better warranty. Nicer cabinet, exterior corner lights and it also has 41 jets.
Cheers and thanks!
Mike
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Sorry about that,
I am south of Toronto, Southern Ontario and purchased at a pioneer family pools location. Would rather not discuss pricing but was very happy with what I paid. Salt water option I think was an additional 800 to 1000 but do not quote me on that. Looked at Jacuzzi and arctic as well. Upgrading to the lime light series from hot spot you also get a better warranty. Nicer cabinet, exterior corner lights and it also has 41 jets.
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Thanks Kies,
Sorry I missed that your post was there, it just got lost in the quoted text.. Thanks again...
I am chatting with Pioneer via email... They have no locations out on the east end though. Couple hour drive to one of there "super stores".. Maybe next week I will get to poke in..
Sorry about that,
I am south of Toronto, Southern Ontario and purchased at a pioneer family pools location. Would rather not discuss pricing but was very happy with what I paid. Salt water option I think was an additional 800 to 1000 but do not quote me on that. Looked at Jacuzzi and arctic as well. Upgrading to the lime light series from hot spot you also get a better warranty. Nicer cabinet, exterior corner lights and it also has 41 jets.
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Not sure who is following. But thought I would update anyways... I have visited most of the major brands and have myself down to Master, Marquis and Artisian. Each has there points that I like.. Dealers are a bit of an issue for me though.
Master (TW8.25 or HL 8.5) is a 2 hours drive from the house. The dealer has stated that he will not charge for service calls or delivery. Just a long ways in case of problems. 2 Pumps lots of jets..
Marquis (Euphoria or Hollywood elite) is a 30 minute drive away. Decent dealer. No major concerns. Seems to be built much like the Master
Artisian (Grand Cayman or Captiva) is a 45 minute drive away. They want to charge $200 delivery and $100 per service call. Not the warmest feelings I have ever had in terms of the dealer but not terrible. Similar to the other options but has 3 pumps instead of 2 and also has a Circ pump. So 4 pumps.
Away a lot right now for work so trying to coordinate a wet test might be 3 or 4 weeks. All are a bit of a drive and all in different directions.
I did finish building my pad today though. Next up to wire up the juice.
Mike
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I’m not a fan of Master Spas at all. My beliefs aside, when a dealer is 2 hours away, it makes it difficult for them to service you in a timely manner. Marquis and Artesian are quality brands. I would personally seek out local options first and only consider a dealer that far away if and only if they were the best dealer and offer the best hot tub.
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Master (TW8.25 or HL 8.5) is a 2 hours drive from the house. The dealer has stated that he will not charge for service calls or delivery. Just a long ways in case of problems. 2 Pumps lots of jets..
Marquis (Euphoria or Hollywood elite) is a 30 minute drive away. Decent dealer. No major concerns. Seems to be built much like the Master
Artisian (Grand Cayman or Captiva) is a 45 minute drive away. They want to charge $200 delivery and $100 per service call.
1-The Master name alone would make me look elsewhere.
2- Marquis is fine
3-Artesian is fine too. BTW delivery is NEVER free. All the others added it to the total price for you while this dealer separates it so if that bothers you think of it as free but the cost of the spa is $200 more than they quoted, same thing. The $100 service charge is not unwarranted for 45 minutes away. Ask them to waive it the first year. Ask them for other things as well, negotiating should never stop until one side of he other says NO THAT'S IT.
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I have reservations about the Master due to distance.. Seems like there is a lot of dislike for the Master brand on this forum. Anyone willing to share some insight? HotTubUniversity guy loves them.. The only thing I have heard from one repair guy, is that he has repaired a bunch of leaks on them....
I did a wet test in a the Marquis Epic Yesterday. Enjoyed. The jets were not as strong as I expected but was very nice still. Dealer says the Filters need to be cleaned and will pickup pressure once done. Not sure how much of a difference it would make. It did feel great though after slugging 3 yards of gravel and 20 patio stones.
Will try and squeeze a wet test in the Artisian, likely not for a couple weeks. Not ideal but so be it.
Thoughts on Artisian of Marquis? The Artisian Grand Bahama lists 1x6BHP and 3x3BHP pumps plus a Circ pump a believe. The Marquis is 2 pumps (2x6bhp I believe) with no Circ. Master I believe would be the same 2x6bhp.
Thoughts?
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HotTubUniversity guy loves them..
He's a shill for the brand, don't get sucked in by his videos.
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Hey Spatech..
Taking the HotUni guys Pimping of Master away from the videos I think there is a lot of value to what he does. That said he is a hardcore pimp for Master
Is there specific things you do not like about Master? This is just me trying to educate myself.
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I have reservations about the Master due to distance.. Seems like there is a lot of dislike for the Master brand on this forum. Anyone willing to share some insight? HotTubUniversity guy loves them.. The only thing I have heard from one repair guy, is that he has repaired a bunch of leaks on them....
I did a wet test in a the Marquis Epic Yesterday. Enjoyed. The jets were not as strong as I expected but was very nice still. Dealer says the Filters need to be cleaned and will pickup pressure once done. Not sure how much of a difference it would make. It did feel great though after slugging 3 yards of gravel and 20 patio stones.
Will try and squeeze a wet test in the Artisian, likely not for a couple weeks. Not ideal but so be it.
Thoughts on Artisian of Marquis? The Artisian Grand Bahama lists 1x6BHP and 3x3BHP pumps plus a Circ pump a believe. The Marquis is 2 pumps (2x6bhp I believe) with no Circ. Master I believe would be the same 2x6bhp.
Thoughts?
Brake horsepower means nothing. In my opinion, horsepower means nothing. You have to take into account the jets that are being powered, how much plumbing there is and how well engineered the plumbing design is. Too much power is not a good thing. The Marquis is 2HP continuous. Generally, whenever you see BHP, cut that number in 1/2, maybe even a little more.
Hot Tub University guy is a Master dealer. Take anything he says with a grain of salt. Most of the negative you hear about Master Spas is due to the questionable ethics they have, that their prices are extremely inflated and that they position themselves as premium when they are not. I think their filtration is gimmicky in that it is no different than a Nature2, their cabinets are the lowest cost possible, and I think their therapy, like many other mid-tier manufacturers, is designed to be spec impressive vs designed for optimal benefit. If they were priced appropriately and you had a reputable dealer, they could be fine, but I personally think there are too many other reputable manufacturers to choose from.
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Sure, he may be a shill for Master, but I think most consumers are smart enough to recognize this early on and discount some of this information. But people are listening to him because he's one of the few clear voices in a very opaque, muddled industry.
I find his videos valuable and entertaining, and still subscribe to his site 13 months after my purchase (I didn't buy a master). He does have a lot of good knowledge about hot tubs, and if taken with a grain of salt can be valuable.
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Well said Silversun...
Sure, he may be a shill for Master, but I think most consumers are smart enough to recognize this early on and discount some of this information. But people are listening to him because he's one of the few clear voices in a very opaque, muddled industry.
I find his videos valuable and entertaining, and still subscribe to his site 13 months after my purchase (I didn't buy a master). He does have a lot of good knowledge about hot tubs, and if taken with a grain of salt can be valuable.
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Hey Spatech..
Taking the HotUni guys Pimping of Master away from the videos I think there is a lot of value to what he does. That said he is a hardcore pimp for Master
Is there specific things you do not like about Master? This is just me trying to educate myself.
I'm sure it works for the 95% who can't see that its all based on the agenda that Master does everything the right way (much of it is subtle the way he leads people along). He certainly is knowledgeable but Master is a middling quality product from a manufacturer you can NOT trust. Put him with a good product and those videos would have more value.
No one here is saying "buy brand Y instead" so we're not doing what he is doing which is to steer you to 1 single brand.
We're saying "buy any one of these dozen other options instead".
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I totally bought into what Chris had to say. My TS 8.25 is being delivered Wednesday and I can't wait.
I'm also interested in exactly why so many people think Master is mid-tier. Lots of talk, little specifics compared to other "top" and unnamed brands.
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Sure, he may be a shill for Master, but I think most consumers are smart enough to recognize this early on and discount some of this information. But people are listening to him because he's one of the few clear voices in a very opaque, muddled industry.
I find his videos valuable and entertaining, and still subscribe to his site 13 months after my purchase (I didn't buy a master). He does have a lot of good knowledge about hot tubs, and if taken with a grain of salt can be valuable.
See I disagree with that. He does have a lot of knowledge about Master Spas. But other then that he spits out a bunch of half truths on other brands. I’ve read through a number of articles on his site. He has actually referred my company to someone on his site. The other company he recommends in my area is quite possibly the scummiest spa dealer I have ever met and he claims he is one of the best dealers around. One of his HTU all star dealers. He is what he is a Master Spa dealer who sells tubs out of his house in Canada. I hope Master Spa is compensating him well for running that site because that’s about the only good press they get.
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I totally bought into what Chris had to say. My TS 8.25 is being delivered Wednesday and I can't wait.
I'm also interested in exactly why so many people think Master is mid-tier. Lots of talk, little specifics compared to other "top" and unnamed brands.
Cheapest cabinets I have ever seen
One of the loudest tubs to run I have ever heard.
Energy efficiency is lacking.
Manufacturer themselves are next to impossible to deal with.
They come into my area probably 3-4 times a year and I’m guessing they sell a decent amount of tubs. The people that come in think they got a $20,000 hot tub for !6000 until they realize what exactly they got. Most of these customers are also under the impression that there run is chemical free because of the bozo that sold the tub.
They aren’t a terrible tub but there are at least a dozen better options out there
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Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows. To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me. I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.
Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.
The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are. The pricing game in this market is shameful. The reviews are unreliable. Total minefield for the consumer.
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Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows. To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me. I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.
Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.
The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are. The pricing game in this market is shameful. The reviews are unreliable. Total minefield for the consumer.
As a dealer who has dealt with the Master Spa circus, and has also had a local dealer the last 17 years, here is my thought......
I believe that 75% of the customers that buy from the traveling shows are not customers who would have bought from me or any other local retailer. These customers were wowed by the enormous discount off the inflated price, fell for the hard sell that they were given, or had no way to discern the false information they are being told and at the time of purchase believed they were really getting a fantastic deal. To the uninformed consumer, their spas generally speaking can look impressive with the higher jet counts, lots of lights, big pumps etc and I can see how someone who hasn't done their due diligence could fall for the sales pitch. However, I rarely ever lost a sale to the tent sale on a high-end ($9k+) purchase. It usually was that sub $8k price point and many times lower price points.
The cabinets Master Spas uses (Confer cabinets) might be the lowest cost cabinet in the industry. I know this because I've seen the pricing on a Confer cabinet from when I sold Marquis and Sunrise. Their covers are thick, low-density foam and have poor durability. I have heard it over and over again from customers that they cost a lot to operate and this is from customers who previously had a full foam spa, so they had a basis to compare to. The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel. Not stainless and not powder coated. They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter. Also, their EcoPur filters are not magic that requires no chlorine either, like most of their salesman claim. They have silver in the filter (Nature2, Spa Frog) which requires a lower level of chlorine, not no chlorine.
But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist.
Oh, and for me specifically, I like it when they do tent sales around me. Their advertising assault brings more customers into my door which leads to more sales for my company.
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But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist.
If 90% of the negativity revolves around the ethics of how they sell their products and not the quality of the build, then I remain happy with my purchase. Again, as an end user I don't care how they sell it. I care whether the product delivers on performance.
As to the dealer, I purchased from Premium Wholesale in Mississauga. My impression so far is that they are pretty solid. Any thoughts?
I will certainly post further feedback after using it for a while.
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Hey Swilly..
Are you fairly local to Premium wholesale? You dealing with Kitchener or Mississauga?
If 90% of the negativity revolves around the ethics of how they sell their products and not the quality of the build, then I remain happy with my purchase. Again, as an end user I don't care how they sell it. I care whether the product delivers on performance.
As to the dealer, I purchased from Premium Wholesale in Mississauga. My impression so far is that they are pretty solid. Any thoughts?
I will certainly post further feedback after using it for a while.
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Went to PW Mississauga. I'm in west Scarborough.
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Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows. To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me. I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.
Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.
The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are. The pricing game in this market is shameful. The reviews are unreliable. Total minefield for the consumer.
I see you must have skimmed past the reasons why I don’t think Master is a great tub. They don’t affect my bottom line. I don’t have a local dealer very close to me (about 2 hours away) and actually they help my business. We service all brands and we are fixing Master’s quite frequently. At least you bought your tub from a local dealer. That makes a big difference. Agree with pricing and review sites in general. Almost all are bought and paid for. Chris is no different then anybody else. Good luck with your new tub. Hopefully you wet tested more then one tub before you came to the conclusion that the Master was the best option for you
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I see you must have skimmed past the reasons why I don’t think Master is a great tub. They don’t affect my bottom line. I don’t have a local dealer very close to me (about 2 hours away) and actually they help my business. We service all brands and we are fixing Master’s quite frequently. At least you bought your tub from a local dealer. That makes a big difference. Agree with pricing and review sites in general. Almost all are bought and paid for. Chris is no different then anybody else. Good luck with your new tub. Hopefully you wet tested more then one tub before you came to the conclusion that the Master was the best option for you
Yes I also wet tested Hydropool and Marquis Vector
No I didn't skim past the reasons:
Cheapest cabinets I have ever seen.....Not sure that I'm going to care about that as long as I don't kick them by accident
One of the loudest tubs to run I have ever heard.Didn't seem that loud to me when I wet tested it
Energy efficiency is lacking. Haven't heard that one in my research, but will trust you on that as you are far more knowledgeable and experienced than me
Manufacturer themselves are next to impossible to deal with. Again, haven't heard that one in my research
They come into my area probably 3-4 times a year and I’m guessing they sell a decent amount of tubs. The people that come in think they got a $20,000 hot tub for !6000 until they realize what exactly they got. Most of these customers are also under the impression that there run is chemical free because of the bozo that sold the tub. Unscrupulous, yes totally but nothing an informed consumer can't feret out. I experienced that MSRP bulls**t with Hydropool, Marquis and Master....that is industry standard.....and shameful. And you would have to be foolish to swallow the chemical free lie. Sadly the whole industry bulls**ts and it's for an educated and resourceful consumer to discover that
They aren’t a terrible tub but there are at least a dozen better options out there
Again, you are far more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I hope that my research plays out. Time will tell :)
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One thing I will say about Marquis is MSRP on there tubs is pretty legit assuming dealers were actually giving you MSRP. As long as you are happy with your purchase that’s all that matters in the long run. Hopefully you don’t need the factory for support because they are pretty terrible and don’t back up most of there warranty claims. A good friend of mine is authorized warranty center for there traveling show tubs and I have heard and seen first hand the difficulty there are to deal with. There famous line is that’s not covered. Hope you have good luck with your tub
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Thanks Castle..
My dealer master dealer is further away then I am 100% comfortable with. That said I am seeing it through. They have to offer some pretty good incentives though for me to choose them over Marquis or Artisian.
I will look into the specific things you have mentioned. I have heard a lot of general slag about Master but yours is the first to detail out some things that I can look at to try and make an educated choose.
Specifically I was unaware they were steel framed. I thought they were wood. I will look at this to confirm.
Noise.. I measured the noise of the Marquis from the four corners using the DB meter on my phone. Not super scientific I know but it gives me a point of comparison. The Marquis with both pumps on high, waterfall on and air on measured 65-67DB. I will do the same with the Master and Artisian.
Cabinets I am a little less concerned about, I will have a gander to see what I think.
How does one compare covers? Marquis I know advertise 2lbs foam on the Signature line. Some others provide thickness.
Regarding filtration.. I am not to worried about each companies magic sauce. Everything I read seems to go back some basic water chemistry. I plan on playing with Enzymes and likely ignoring the other additives once they run out. This will be a huge learning curve as I have zero! experience here.
Whats the story with the rebate scam? Maybe I should just search to see what I can find..
Thanks again!
Mike
As a dealer who has dealt with the Master Spa circus, and has also had a local dealer the last 17 years, here is my thought......
I believe that 75% of the customers that buy from the traveling shows are not customers who would have bought from me or any other local retailer. These customers were wowed by the enormous discount off the inflated price, fell for the hard sell that they were given, or had no way to discern the false information they are being told and at the time of purchase believed they were really getting a fantastic deal. To the uninformed consumer, their spas generally speaking can look impressive with the higher jet counts, lots of lights, big pumps etc and I can see how someone who hasn't done their due diligence could fall for the sales pitch. However, I rarely ever lost a sale to the tent sale on a high-end ($9k+) purchase. It usually was that sub $8k price point and many times lower price points.
The cabinets Master Spas uses (Confer cabinets) might be the lowest cost cabinet in the industry. I know this because I've seen the pricing on a Confer cabinet from when I sold Marquis and Sunrise. Their covers are thick, low-density foam and have poor durability. I have heard it over and over again from customers that they cost a lot to operate and this is from customers who previously had a full foam spa, so they had a basis to compare to. The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel. Not stainless and not powder coated. They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter. Also, their EcoPur filters are not magic that requires no chlorine either, like most of their salesman claim. They have silver in the filter (Nature2, Spa Frog) which requires a lower level of chlorine, not no chlorine.
But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist.
Oh, and for me specifically, I like it when they do tent sales around me. Their advertising assault brings more customers into my door which leads to more sales for my company.
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Covers are difficult to determine quality. I base my opinion on the number of replacement covers I sold for 2-3 year old Master Spas. In my opinion, many manufacturers use inferior covers to help keep the cost down.
As for the rebate scam, back in the early 2000's Master Spas would offer rebates to their customers. They varied from 100% rebates to as low as $2k-$3k rebates. The customer would have to pay the inflated price and if they met all the demands of the rebates, they would get their refund after 36 months. Less than 1% of the customers got their rebate. In the end, the rebate company went bankrupt and Master Spas skirted any liability even though they were the ones behind it.
There probably are is threads in this forum detailing the rebate. My opinion is that if a company is willing to screw their customers once, what is going to stop them from doing it again? That thought is also why I don't trust Cal Spas either.
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Thanks Castle...
I appreciate the detail. I did do some searching and read a little on the rebate scam.. Pretty douche..
Still going to wet test... Its on my way home Friday anyways.
Thanks folks. Will update with new info or decisions..
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The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel. Not stainless and not powder coated. They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter.
So my Master TS8.25 arrived yesterday and unless I'm missing something, that is a wood frame, not steel.
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMD-SIvrQID2iEk277gffjACOvTX7oDXkEvnJUv (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMD-SIvrQID2iEk277gffjACOvTX7oDXkEvnJUv)
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM)
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Links are not working Swilly....
That said I really thought they were wood framed as well.
So my Master TS8.25 arrived yesterday and unless I'm missing something, that is a wood frame, not steel.
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMD-SIvrQID2iEk277gffjACOvTX7oDXkEvnJUv (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMD-SIvrQID2iEk277gffjACOvTX7oDXkEvnJUv)
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM)
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Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows. To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me. I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.
Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.
The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are. The pricing game in this market is shameful. The reviews are unreliable. Total minefield for the consumer.
As a dealer who has dealt with the Master Spa circus, and has also had a local dealer the last 17 years, here is my thought......
I believe that 75% of the customers that buy from the traveling shows are not customers who would have bought from me or any other local retailer. These customers were wowed by the enormous discount off the inflated price, fell for the hard sell that they were given, or had no way to discern the false information they are being told and at the time of purchase believed they were really getting a fantastic deal. To the uninformed consumer, their spas generally speaking can look impressive with the higher jet counts, lots of lights, big pumps etc and I can see how someone who hasn't done their due diligence could fall for the sales pitch. However, I rarely ever lost a sale to the tent sale on a high-end ($9k+) purchase. It usually was that sub $8k price point and many times lower price points.
The cabinets Master Spas uses (Confer cabinets) might be the lowest cost cabinet in the industry. I know this because I've seen the pricing on a Confer cabinet from when I sold Marquis and Sunrise. Their covers are thick, low-density foam and have poor durability. I have heard it over and over again from customers that they cost a lot to operate and this is from customers who previously had a full foam spa, so they had a basis to compare to. The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel. Not stainless and not powder coated. They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter. Also, their EcoPur filters are not magic that requires no chlorine either, like most of their salesman claim. They have silver in the filter (Nature2, Spa Frog) which requires a lower level of chlorine, not no chlorine.
But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist.
Oh, and for me specifically, I like it when they do tent sales around me. Their advertising assault brings more customers into my door which leads to more sales for my company.
100% you hit the nail on the head...for longstanding dealers offering premium options Master isn't capturing any of our business really, they are selling to people who see a tent and some balloons setup in a parking lot and think they found the "unicorn" for $8,000 marked down from $15,000 sold by someone who is saying whatever lies they can so they can cash a paycheck before they fly out to their next 'Event' and in reality they bought a $6,495 tub for $8,000
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Links are not working Swilly....
Better?
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM)
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPQswQQww-2klulKcumDOblTNv3uJOvvTxfjVKm (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPQswQQww-2klulKcumDOblTNv3uJOvvTxfjVKm)
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The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are. The pricing game in this market is shameful. The reviews are unreliable. Total minefield for the consumer.
But yet some how the worst company in this shamefull industry avoids all this?
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Not at all. Master is hated by more than any of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is a minefield.
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Links are not working Swilly....
Better?
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM)
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPQswQQww-2klulKcumDOblTNv3uJOvvTxfjVKm (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPQswQQww-2klulKcumDOblTNv3uJOvvTxfjVKm)
Still don’t work but they did get away from steel frames a couple years ago. Maybe even 4-5 years ago
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Not at all. Master is hated by more than any of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is a minefield.
Master is not hated except for those who are directly affected by their unscrupulous traveling sales circus. They are disrespected overall and for good reason. Often times its not about what you should buy but more about what you're better off avoiding. People here are good about naming 3, 5, 7.. different good options and not just saying "buy my favorite brand".
The industry can be a minefield for those who don't understand it fully which is why people come here for advise. It is the opinion of many here that they'd be wise to avoid the mines like Master and Cal. There are plenty of good options out there and some decent ones as well, Master just isn't considered a good option by most.
No one is saying 100% of Master owners will be dissatisfied, they are saying a higher % will be. If the advise you see here doesn't match what you purchased that's unfortunate and we all wish you well.
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Not at all. Master is hated by more than any of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is a minefield.
Master is not hated except for those who are directly affected by their unscrupulous traveling sales circus. They are disrespected overall and for good reason. Often times its not about what you should buy but more about what you're better off avoiding. People here are good about naming 3, 5, 7.. different good options and not just saying "buy my favorite brand".
The industry can be a minefield for those who don't understand it fully which is why people come here for advise. It is the opinion of many here that they'd be wise to avoid the mines like Master and Cal. There are plenty of good options out there and some decent ones as well, Master just isn't considered a good option by most.
No one is saying 100% of Master owners will be dissatisfied, they are saying a higher % will be. If the advise you see here doesn't match what you purchased that's unfortunate and we all wish you well.
Well said man.
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When I was in the market looking for a hot tub I went into 4 different dealers, Mater, Arctic, jacuzzi and hotsprings. Master was the only one that bad mouthed every other brand. Even tried to argue with me about warranty on one brand. I could tell the difference in quality from silicone job to other things where master was the worst. When I told him to look up the warranty online to confirm what the other brand was he did not. None of the other dealers bad mouthed any other brand of hot tub. I ended up going with a hotspring flash for only about 1000 more than the master twilight spa we were looking at. In the end you have to be happy with your purchase but there is good advice on this forum if you are willing to listen to it. In the end what really turned me off of master was the attitude of the dealer bad mouthing every other brand. To me this is totally unprofessional and I would never buy from a place that does this to try to get a sale. Plus the quality of the cabinet and the silicon me on the lights also turned me off and a worse warranty.
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I had a similar experience when shopping around last year. The master dealer was lightyears behind the others in sales practices. Their entire process seemed antiquated and shoddy.
They first tried to sell me on a tub which the buyer had flaked during one of their tent sales - which they insisted they have no control over, and the manufacturer dictates the dates and the terms to them. They claimed the buyer put down a deposit, but couldn't finance the remainder and they were willing to sell me the hot tub minus the deposit which was a great deal. It was a red flag, and my BS meter was pinging off the charts. Then the dealer tried to sell me on the 'no chemicals needed' pitch, which was really just the mineral stick/MPS method. MPS is obviously a chemical (and I think you still need some chlorine). I'm OK w/ some sales pitch, but it was the way the dealer insisted Master had figured out a special method that nobody else in the industry could replicate, a method which mitigated the need for any type of chemical at all. It was insulting to my intelligence.
I was ready to walk by that point, only 15 minutes into my visit.
The final straw was the wet test. When I asked about a wet test, the dealer asked me to put down a deposit just to wet test their twilight series tub. No thanks.
This was all before I knew anything about the quality of the tub relative to the competition or their reputation as a business.
The dealer in question was Crocker Sales in Woburn, MA.
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All the recent replies really seem to be saying one thing.. You need to trust the dealer you are going to buy from..
I have had the experience of trash talking brands sales guys at a few stores. It has been the lower end stores mostly. That said I like our local Marquis dealer. Seems decent, honest and easy going... I stopped by another Marquis dealer while I was away on training last week just to get a feel for the price I was offered. I mentioned the other brands I was intereted in and he went into a diatribe about how they do not even compare and trashing them all. When I finally managed to get a price out of him he was 3k more then my local store who I have not really negotiated with..Guy was just a shill. But two different stores selling the same thing. One I would gladly recommend even if I don't buy from them myself and another that is as crooked as they come.
To update on the process..
I did sit in the master today - Twilight 7.2.. Comparing the the Marquis I would say the jets are stronger. That said Marquis makes up for some of this with the Hot Zone Jets which were amazing. The Foot Blaster in the Master were not nearly as strong. Displays arnd controls are a wash in my mind. The Marquis does have extra pump buttons for the users on the far side of the tub so they can turn pumps on and off without going to the control.
Comfort wise I found the Marquis Maskoka style lounger to be very comfy. Its a mix of Lounge and upright. So you get the benefit of the lounge without giving up as much space. The Master was very comfy as well. Just loose some seating space to the lounge.
I also measured noise in a pretty unscientific method, using my phone. I turned pumps up to max and put my phone at the main seating spots. The Marquis came i around 65-67DB with my family in it (raising the water level submerging all the jets). The Master was at 70-72DB but with the neck jets unsubmerged as no one was in the tub. Turning the neck jets off it came down the 68-70... Really a wash in my mind.
The frame is wood as mentioned on the Master. The cabinet seemed fine in my mind. But I maybe did not look as closely as I should have.
Price wise they are pretty close with the advantage going to the Marquis right now. Master did drop the price a fair bit from the initial offer, where I think the Marquis guy keeps margins pretty tight based on the other Marquis store I visited.
Once spec that struck me as odd today.. Not sure I am reading to much into it..
The Master is 94x94x38 and about 400 gallons
The Marquis is 90x90x35 and about 450 g
The Artisian is 91x91x36 and about 450 g.
Odd that the largest tub has the smallest water capacity. Anything to this or just more empty space and nothing to consider?
Cheers folks. I think we are water testing the Artisian on Sunday.
On the Artisian front. Anything to the number of pumps they are putting in? Master and Marquis are 2, the Artisian is 3 or 4 plus a circ? Should I expect more out of the jets for all the extra HP in pumps?
Mike
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I had a similar experience when shopping around last year. The master dealer was lightyears behind the others in sales practices. Their entire process seemed antiquated and shoddy.
They first tried to sell me on a tub which the buyer had flaked during one of their tent sales - which they insisted they have no control over, and the manufacturer dictates the dates and the terms to them. They claimed the buyer put down a deposit, but couldn't finance the remainder and they were willing to sell me the hot tub minus the deposit which was a great deal. It was a red flag, and my BS meter was pinging off the charts. Then the dealer tried to sell me on the 'no chemicals needed' pitch, which was really just the mineral stick/MPS method. MPS is obviously a chemical (and I think you still need some chlorine). I'm OK w/ some sales pitch, but it was the way the dealer insisted Master had figured out a special method that nobody else in the industry could replicate, a method which mitigated the need for any type of chemical at all. It was insulting to my intelligence.
I was ready to walk by that point, only 15 minutes into my visit.
The final straw was the wet test. When I asked about a wet test, the dealer asked me to put down a deposit just to wet test their twilight series tub. No thanks.
This was all before I knew anything about the quality of the tub relative to the competition or their reputation as a business.
The dealer in question was Crocker Sales in Woburn, MA.
Funny you should mention that dealer. I service a lot of tubs sold from there
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All the recent replies really seem to be saying one thing.. You need to trust the dealer you are going to buy from..
I have had the experience of trash talking brands sales guys at a few stores. It has been the lower end stores mostly. That said I like our local Marquis dealer. Seems decent, honest and easy going... I stopped by another Marquis dealer while I was away on training last week just to get a feel for the price I was offered. I mentioned the other brands I was intereted in and he went into a diatribe about how they do not even compare and trashing them all. When I finally managed to get a price out of him he was 3k more then my local store who I have not really negotiated with..Guy was just a shill. But two different stores selling the same thing. One I would gladly recommend even if I don't buy from them myself and another that is as crooked as they come.
To update on the process..
I did sit in the master today - Twilight 7.2.. Comparing the the Marquis I would say the jets are stronger. That said Marquis makes up for some of this with the Hot Zone Jets which were amazing. The Foot Blaster in the Master were not nearly as strong. Displays arnd controls are a wash in my mind. The Marquis does have extra pump buttons for the users on the far side of the tub so they can turn pumps on and off without going to the control.
Comfort wise I found the Marquis Maskoka style lounger to be very comfy. Its a mix of Lounge and upright. So you get the benefit of the lounge without giving up as much space. The Master was very comfy as well. Just loose some seating space to the lounge.
I also measured noise in a pretty unscientific method, using my phone. I turned pumps up to max and put my phone at the main seating spots. The Marquis came i around 65-67DB with my family in it (raising the water level submerging all the jets). The Master was at 70-72DB but with the neck jets unsubmerged as no one was in the tub. Turning the neck jets off it came down the 68-70... Really a wash in my mind.
The frame is wood as mentioned on the Master. The cabinet seemed fine in my mind. But I maybe did not look as closely as I should have.
Price wise they are pretty close with the advantage going to the Marquis right now. Master did drop the price a fair bit from the initial offer, where I think the Marquis guy keeps margins pretty tight based on the other Marquis store I visited.
Once spec that struck me as odd today.. Not sure I am reading to much into it..
The Master is 94x94x38 and about 400 gallons
The Marquis is 90x90x35 and about 450 g
The Artisian is 91x91x36 and about 450 g.
Odd that the largest tub has the smallest water capacity. Anything to this or just more empty space and nothing to consider?
Cheers folks. I think we are water testing the Artisian on Sunday.
On the Artisian front. Anything to the number of pumps they are putting in? Master and Marquis are 2, the Artisian is 3 or 4 plus a circ? Should I expect more out of the jets for all the extra HP in pumps?
Mike
You hit on a great point. The best dealer in the world could sell the crappiest tub but if he supports it well and is good at what he is doing you will more then likely be happy. On the flip side a bad dealer can sell the best tub and if he doesn’t take care of you as a customer you will have a negative experience.
I believe the Artesian uses more pumps but I also believe they are smaller pumps. Sounds like you looked st the Epic by Marquis. I own the Resort. That chair is my favorite seat in any tub. Bad mouthing the competition is usually a great way to lose a perspective sale. $3000 is a big difference. Where are you at price wise on the Epic because I’m shocked it’s cheaper then the Master? Which Master are you considering?
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Hey Hottubguy...
The three(ish) we are looking at in order of price highest to lowest with a little over $1000 spread.
Artisian Grand Cayman/Bahama (Lounge vs no Lounge)
Master 8.25/8.2
Marquis Epic/Euphoria
As I write this and look over the numbers again, I need to confirm what jet package I have pricing on the artisian. They have quite a few options. It maybe that I have pricing on the 52 jet version which is 2 x 6BHP motors which is the same as the others. I think I want the 61 jet foot blasters though which is the 2 x 6BHP and an extra 3BHP motor. So price wise I am not positive I am comparing apples on the Artisian at this point. Or, maybe I am comparing apples but I want the orange ;-)
I will be there tomorrow at some point to confirm thought.
Cheers,
Mike
edit...
I went back and look at pictures.. The pretty sure its pricing on the 62 jet version which is 2 x 6bhp and 1 x 3bhp pumps. I (think) want the 61 jet plus 2 foot blasters which has the same pump package. To add, artisian also has a circ pump. Master and Marquis are both without circ.
Mike
I believe the Artesian uses more pumps but I also believe they are smaller pumps. Sounds like you looked st the Epic by Marquis. I own the Resort. That chair is my favorite seat in any tub. Bad mouthing the competition is usually a great way to lose a perspective sale. $3000 is a big difference. Where are you at price wise on the Epic because I’m shocked it’s cheaper then the Master? Which Master are you considering?
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Gallonage / Capacity is about how the mold is made. Everyone uses 100 x 100 inch sheets of acrylic on larger tubs. But one may not make as strong of a shell than others. Therefor, they make a larger frame. This larger frame in turn creates a larger lip, which in turn pushes everything into the center of the tub, in turn lessening the cubic footage available, in turn lessening the gallonage / capacity.
*OR*
The seats may not sit as deep which could also lessen the capacity
*OR*
The manufacturer may be overstating the gallonage / capacity.
*OR*
The tub just isn't as efficient with the usage of space compared to another model / brand
*OR*
Some combination of or all of these things, and probably something I didn't really think of / forgot. I think gallons really don't tell you much- It's like square footage on a house: You can have tons of space but if it is not used efficiently / effectively, it really takes away from the experience.
You're on the right path and asking fair questions. But don't overthink this: Start with comfort and feel of the jets. This is #1, 2 & 3 on the list of priorities. Then consider the dealer. From there, if you still don't have your answer, then start to winnow the options down based on price and features, and continue to ask the fine folks that participate in this forum.
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Thanks Wizard...
A couple of the dealers have asked me what my priorities were. Had to think about that question.. But I came down to these three..
1. Comfort and Massage
2. Dealer
3. Price
Beyond that its all semantics. Much of what I am asking about and researching is just me learning. I am the type that does not dive in head first generally. I research and educate myself about all the the possibilities.
A buddy decided he was interested in a hot tub as well and has been budding me about where to and what to buy. He almost bought a Hydropool but I convinced him to take a trip to the Marquis dealer I like as its a short distance from his place. Anyways he put a deposit down on an Epic today. I wonder if they have a referral bonus :-)
Tomorrow is the Artisian.. Then time to make a decision...
Thanks again all...
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Well after much ado... I ordered a tub today...
I have a Marquis Epic coming in about 4 weeks. In the end the Marquis won on all 3 points I picked as important.
1. Comfort and Massage
I really like the Marquis Muskoka style lounge. The other I found you sacrifced to much space with the lounge. Further I found the others lounge comfortable for me but not the rest of the family. Massage and jetting I would put them all pretty equal. With although Marquis would be the lowest. But so close its hard to say..
2. Dealer
My artisian dealer is a nice lady but just not much passion and no negotiating.
Master was great to deal with. My favorite sales guy of the bunch. No pressure, easy to talk to. The 200km distance though is not a great option when I need a proprietary filter or have emergency work needed.
Marquis is my closet dealer of the 3. The sales guy is pretty high strung but easy to get on with though. Very passionate and gave me what I think is a great deal. His price was 3 - 4k cheaper then the other 2 Marquis dealers I checked out.
3. Price
Marquis was my cheapest option. Further I got another $300 knocked off for sending a friend in who bought a tub. Only problem is he bought the tub I would have got, now I have to wait 4 weeks and his is being delivered today!
I appreciate everyone's insight through out. I am sure I will be back with some chemistry questions soon enough. In the mean time I will continue to linger and help out with some of the easier questions people ask.
Thanks again all
Mike
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Congrats!!! The Epic is an awesome hot tub that I'm sure you will enjoy for years.
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Well after much ado... I ordered a tub today...
I have a Marquis Epic coming in about 4 weeks. In the end the Marquis won on all 3 points I picked as important.
1. Comfort and Massage
I really like the Marquis Muskoka style lounge. The other I found you sacrifced to much space with the lounge. Further I found the others lounge comfortable for me but not the rest of the family. Massage and jetting I would put them all pretty equal. With although Marquis would be the lowest. But so close its hard to say..
2. Dealer
My artisian dealer is a nice lady but just not much passion and no negotiating.
Master was great to deal with. My favorite sales guy of the bunch. No pressure, easy to talk to. The 200km distance though is not a great option when I need a proprietary filter or have emergency work needed.
Marquis is my closet dealer of the 3. The sales guy is pretty high strung but easy to get on with though. Very passionate and gave me what I think is a great deal. His price was 3 - 4k cheaper then the other 2 Marquis dealers I checked out.
3. Price
Marquis was my cheapest option. Further I got another $300 knocked off for sending a friend in who bought a tub. Only problem is he bought the tub I would have got, now I have to wait 4 weeks and his is being delivered today!
I appreciate everyone's insight through out. I am sure I will be back with some chemistry questions soon enough. In the mean time I will continue to linger and help out with some of the easier questions people ask.
Thanks again all
Mike
Did you buy a special order or a tub they have on order. My hardest part about being a Marquis dealer is the long wait to get tubs. It is a great tub though. I own a Marquis myself
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It is a special order. I am told 4 weeks. That said we are only a couple hours from their Canadian Warehouse... They could put me in a Midnight canyon colour today, but family took the reins and said they want the silver/white...
Whats your traditional lead time this this time of year?
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I’m going on about 7 weeks for the last order I placed. Sucks because I like selling the product but for me it’s easier to sell the other brand I carry because I know I can get them in 3 1/2- 4 weeks. Guess it just means they have a high demand on their product. Sounds like your dealer is grabbing tubs out of the stock up in Canada
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Congrats Michael Russell, that’s a great tub. My favorite spot in the Epic is sitting in the flootwell and getting the geyser jets on the lower and mid/upper back.
I would prepare for the possibility of a little bit longer lead time like hottubguy said, although they might arrive faster to Canadian dealers. The Marquis factory is very busy.
Enjoy the tub!
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Hoping it is not much longer. Time will tell though. The midnight canyon was being offered by marquis was actually assigned to another customer who does not need it until mid November. They were willing to give me that one and bring in another tub to replace it for them.
I will question the dealer next time we talk and ask if he is being optimistic or realistic.
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I ordered my tub on July 20th, the dealer quoted eight weeks and it took just over 10 weeks. They are made to order I'm guessing. That didn't matter though as I got the one I wanted.
That extra two weeks is diddly in comparison to the many years I will enjoy it.
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Thanks for this thread, ya'll, I learned a few crucial things.
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Well some food for thought..
I originally started this thread looking at tubs that will help me minimize water changes. My neighbour who already has a hot tub has been trucking in water at $120 a load to fill his tub 3 - 4 times a year. As I read an researched I realized there are options beyond salt that will help me reduce water changes and I decided to avoid salt.
Yesterday I took a couple of water samples up to my hot tub store to get the water tested. It gave me an excuse to go up and check the status of my order...
Anyways. The two samples I brought up were straight from my well and through my full filtration system (sediment filter, softner, UV, Fine particulate filter and carbon filter).
I have not figured out how to attach pictures yet so here is the hand typed results :-)
Unfiltered
Bromine - 0.47ppm (Surprised this is showing a reading from the well???)
pH - 7.9
Hardness - 106ppm
Alkalinity - 181ppm
Copper - 0ppm
Iron - 0.2ppm
Phosphate - 1 ppb
Filtered
Bromine - 0.39ppm (Again surpised by this, thought Carbon would take this out of water)
pH - 7.8
Hardness - 0ppm
Alkalinity - 201ppm
Copper - 0ppm
Iron - 0.2ppm
Phosphate - 0 ppb
Any chemistry experts want to review? Main concern I have using the well is the bacteria in the water. We do have chloriform bacteria as well as some iron bacteria (minor staining in toilet). Any issue with introducing this into the tub? I believe the Chlorine or bromine will kill it all and it will be filtered out. Any side effects I should consider or do you think that the well water unfiltered will do? Should I use one of the X10 water filters on the hose? Looks like the RV hose filters are quite a bit cheaper and seem to use the same filter tech and filter the same things.
Side note. Dealer has not hear of any delays and is expecting the tub to hit Canada in about 3 weeks.
Cheers guys!
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The x10 filters are only around $60 and they will last for 10 ish water changes as I recall. Not a tipping point $ wise.
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I ordered the Camco ones.. Get 2 for $40. They are for drinking water in an RV so they should be fine....
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My first post after a lot of reading. I was considering a master spa. Probably for about 12,995 cdn +tax including probably a lifter or something for an 8.25 - i didn't negotiate. I think I'm not willing to pay that now though based on the negativity towards the brand - too big of a risk - they would have to be less then other brands signficantly now for me personally despite everything else. Seems ethically that company has some issues. From reading I think the Marquis is the way to go.
Michael, would you be able to let me know what kindof of price you paid on the Marquis for reference in comparison? I also looked at Beachcomber and they seem like a quality tub but a bit old school and featureless.
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Hey hobble..
Where about are you located? I was into 3 different Marquis dealers across southern Ontario. Two of them quoted very high prices. The other, my local dealer was much cheaper and was has quote sheets with all the prices available to share. Including all the options.
The epic we got for $12,000
Upgraded constellation lights $454
Cover lifter $200
Delivery $300....
The $12k is with a $1000 factory discount that may not be available now.
Cheers
Mike
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I paid $12,995 + tax for my Master 8.25 back in July. Took delivery and started using it October 1st. Love it so far. Bargained the cover lifter, WI-FI app and ABS pan into that price.
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I think it's good for people to be sharing and asking what they and others have paid for their tubs. A big part of what is wrong with this market is the non-disclosure of pricing in the marketing of hot tubs.
The argument the manufacturers will give you is that it's difficult to compare apples to apples because of all the choices among brands, models and options. And when consumers respond to that by saying those same choices exist within similar markets (e.g. automobiles) marketers will counter by saying that the relatively smaller hot tub market makes the hot tub market different. I say that is b******t. Consumers should be given pricing information in marketing materials instead of having to ferret it out by calling and visiting dealers.
Compounding the problem is consumers being reluctant to share their price experiences because they don't want to look foolish for having paid too much. It's the opposite of talking about getting a great deal. People love to brag about getting a great deal but they are embarrassed to admit they got hosed. Of course this just plays right into hands of the marketers because it keeps pricing in the shadows.
So please freely share your pricing experiences. It will help make the market more efficient.....and benefit consumers.
Just my two cents.
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This post is not meant to defend the industry's pricing policies, but it's a little more nuanced than it appears.
You said "relatively smaller" referring to the hot tub industry vs. the auto industry. Last year the hot tub industry sold about $1billion dollars worth of goods. Volkswagen alone sold $240 billion. The hot tub industry is a very small industry. The manufacturer support of dealers is significantly different between the 2. And unlike cars, the company has to come to your house to make the repair. What about financing? Financing is very expensive for hot tub dealers. Most customers don't realize that the 24 months no interest financing that one company offered costs them 10% to 14%. It's not like the auto industry where they can get kickbacks for financing. It costs us a lot of money. There's no in house Hot Spring Financial division like I got with my volkswagen. If one guy offers financing and the other doesn't, that effects the price and most people don't factor that in.
If you commodotize hot tubs and make it all about who has the lowest price, the industry would suffer and service and support would become much worse, in my opionion. It's pretty expensive to have a fully trained, experienced, and well paid tech support staff. To answer the phone 7 days per week. To stock expensive parts on your own dime until a warranty call gets processed months later. Good service has a cost. When pricing becomes a race to the bottom, those things suffer.
Also, when comparing prices it's hard to compare what exactly one company does on delivery than another. What steps they use. What cover lifter they use. What type of chemical kit do they give you. Starter kits can range from $15 to $100 wholesale cost. Do they subcontract out their deliveries and service to another company? Are they so understaffed on delivery or service teams so that it takes a long time to get scheduled?
When you just compare the raw numbers it's hard to factor all of these things in. Dealer A may be $500 cheaper, but if he uses a crappy chinese cover lift and step, a cheap basic starter kit that lasts 2 days, uncle cletus delivers the spa late, when it breaks down on a freezing friday they tell you to call the service company that handles that stuff but they aren't open until monday, etc. was it worth the savings? When price shopping, these things are often overlooked. People just want the best "deal". Sometimes to offer the best deal, these are the corners that get cut.
Again, I agree that our industry could do better than it does. I'm at least glad that they don't do what the mattress industry does. Mattress companies change the label and model name for every different store so you cannot compare at all between them.
Sorry for the rant. I do indeed agree that our industry has issues that need to be addressed, specifically with customer's having difficulty getting prices and comparing.
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i dont mean for this post to be incendiary, but as a consumer I would like to point out some things that were plain to me.
Last year the hot tub industry sold about $1billion dollars worth of goods
you seem to imply that because the industry is smaller than the auto industry, pricing should not be transparent. But there are lots of industries that are even smaller, and still publish prices. lots of industries don't have their own financing division, either. none of this prevents prices from being published for all to see for almost every other b2c retail industry.
If you commodotize hot tubs and make it all about who has the lowest price, the industry would suffer and service and support would become much worse, in my opionion
has this not already happened with discount brands that are only sold in home depot and costco? If someone really didn't value the service/dealer relationship they would not even be in your store, instead they'd be paying half as much on an inferior brand. they either find out later that this was a bad choice, or they do their research in advance, figure out it's a bad investment, and go to a dealer. It just seems to me like it's not as simple as this. people value service after the sale.
Also, when comparing prices it's hard to compare what exactly one company does on delivery than another. What steps they use. What cover lifter they use.
- this doesn't prevent you from showing a stock price.
- this is your chance to sell / make additional margin. customers can/should be able to opt out of these if they smell BS in your pitch. a hot tub doesnt need steps. it doesn't need a cover lifter. it's your job to convince us we do.
When you just compare the raw numbers it's hard to factor all of these things in. Dealer A may be $500 cheaper, but if he uses a crappy chinese cover lift and step, a cheap basic starter kit that lasts 2 days, uncle cletus delivers the spa late, when it breaks down on a freezing friday they tell you to call the service company that handles that stuff but they aren't open until monday, etc. was it worth the savings? When price shopping, these things are often overlooked. People just want the best "deal". Sometimes to offer the best deal, these are the corners that get cut.
- this doesn't prevent you from showing a sticker price and negotiating on it, like any car dealer.
- It's is also your chance to show value, and sell. some people will buy the pitch and see value in it. some wont.
- You're making the assumption that everyone just wants the lowest price regardless, but i think thats short sighted. I knowingly paid a premium over other dealers and brands because i the dealer had a great reputation for service after the sale, and had the least amount of crazy BS in their pitch. That mattered to me.
I think the real reason why dealers don't show pricing is not because they can't, or that they would be chased out of business, but because it's in their best financial interest to be opaque. The dealer is at a significant advantage if they can select the price from which to start negotiations.
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I think the real reason why dealers don't show pricing is not because they can't, or that they would be chased out of business, but because it's in their best financial interest to be opaque. The dealer is at a significant advantage if they can select the price from which to start negotiations.
Exactly!
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Long Thread. Buyer a hot tub is a luxury item. It's different from car buying. You get out there, visit the dealers, get the brochures and prices and do you due diligence. Then if your smart, you come to a forum like this and get input from some really nice owners and dealer who help you drill down on you decision. My wife keeps asking me how do I know we are getting $5,000 off the Caldera Makena we are looking at, well I know form this forum it's about $3,000 off what they go for.
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Here is my take as a dealer.
There are a lot of variables that go into the price of the hot tub. Most manufacturer's do have an MSRP. That MSRP is for the hot tub and usually the cover. It doesn't include a step, cover lift, chemical kit, shipping from the manufacturer to the dealer, delivery from the dealer to the customer, or any other accessory you may want. You also have different price point accessories. Shipping will cost more the further you are from the manufacturer. Each delivery is different. Each dealer handles service different. Some contract out. Others handle it inhouse. Some don't charge travel fees and some do. With all the variables, how can the manufacturer list a price that applies to everybody? The answer is they can't.
I invite anyone to argue this statement. People only hear or read what they want to. If I put on my website that a hot tub starts at $10,000, consumers usually miss the "starts at" and assume the hot tub is $10,000. They don't want to be told there are extras that they think should be standard and that the cost could be more. It is always easier for me as a dealer to take away than to ask for more.
I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room. It didn't work well because all my competition had negotiable prices.
Most consumers understand that nothing sells for MSRP which means that MSRP is then irrelevant. Every dealer has different overhead costs, different costs of doing business, which affect what they sell for. Every business is in business to make money and if you think otherwise, you are mistaken. I do like to think most are trying to make an honest profit and not screw the customer.
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This post is not meant to defend the industry's pricing policies, but it's a little more nuanced than it appears.
When price shopping, these things are often overlooked. People just want the best "deal". Sometimes to offer the best deal, these are the corners that get cut.
Again, I agree that our industry could do better than it does. I'm at least glad that they don't do what the mattress industry does. Mattress companies change the label and model name for every different store so you cannot compare at all between them.
Sorry for the rant. I do indeed agree that our industry has issues that need to be addressed, specifically with customer's having difficulty getting prices and comparing.
Here is my take as a dealer.
There are a lot of variables that go into the price of the hot tub. Most manufacturer's do have an MSRP. That MSRP is for the hot tub and usually the cover. It doesn't include a step, cover lift, chemical kit, shipping from the manufacturer to the dealer, delivery from the dealer to the customer, or any other accessory you may want. You also have different price point accessories. Shipping will cost more the further you are from the manufacturer. Each delivery is different. Each dealer handles service different. Some contract out. Others handle it inhouse. Some don't charge travel fees and some do. With all the variables, how can the manufacturer list a price that applies to everybody? The answer is they can't.
I invite anyone to argue this statement. People only hear or read what they want to. If I put on my website that a hot tub starts at $10,000, consumers usually miss the "starts at" and assume the hot tub is $10,000. They don't want to be told there are extras that they think should be standard and that the cost could be more. It is always easier for me as a dealer to take away than to ask for more.
I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room. It didn't work well because all my competition had negotiable prices.
Excellent points by both !
Silversun points out some specific questions on a few items but in the general scope of things, consumers are trying to get educated fast via the internet, forums and whatever else we find to peruse as 'trusted sources'. At the same time, many good folks as reputable dealers and service centers are vying for customers trying to get them in the door so they can get a shot at building trust/rapport educating them and creating a beneficial relationship. Specialty stores and products really need to represented and backed up this way (expert trained staff and service) versus the big box stores and customers benefit in the long term.
I've been in a specialty business and retail sales side to know this and experience that success with long lists of clients, word of mouth, solid reputation that cuts through the big box, high volume B.S. - Those that net the unsuspecting customers and (unfortunately) sours them on ALL sales professionals eventually.
HTU- I felt lucky to find that source for learning some on tubs and even though Chris wears a MASTER TUBS bumper sticker on his forehead (jk)..... He seems sincere in the way he tours some of the plants and expresses his concern or accolades about a few named brands.
The thing that I trust and sticks with me is his line about the few key things every tub maker has to get right or cut corners on as most won't do everything at the optimal level. That makes sense and he seemed to back it up with a number of brands he named as good considerations. I think many can cut through the weeds and find his information helpful as they go shopping and comparing.
In the end, my situation solved itself before making any big $$ plans just as we were going to go "looking" and an offer of a freebie came up that very day. We were gifted an older but well cared for Marquis, had it professionally moved and are very excited to have it filled and ready to go, first soak was today.
~ bachman
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I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.
Have you tried publicizing your pricing?
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Here is my take as a dealer.
There are a lot of variables that go into the price of the hot tub. Most manufacturer's do have an MSRP. That MSRP is for the hot tub and usually the cover. It doesn't include a step, cover lift, chemical kit, shipping from the manufacturer to the dealer, delivery from the dealer to the customer, or any other accessory you may want. You also have different price point accessories. Shipping will cost more the further you are from the manufacturer. Each delivery is different. Each dealer handles service different. Some contract out. Others handle it inhouse. Some don't charge travel fees and some do. With all the variables, how can the manufacturer list a price that applies to everybody? The answer is they can't.
I invite anyone to argue this statement. People only hear or read what they want to. If I put on my website that a hot tub starts at $10,000, consumers usually miss the "starts at" and assume the hot tub is $10,000. They don't want to be told there are extras that they think should be standard and that the cost could be more. It is always easier for me as a dealer to take away than to ask for more.
I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room. It didn't work well because all my competition had negotiable prices.
Most consumers understand that nothing sells for MSRP which means that MSRP is then irrelevant. Every dealer has different overhead costs, different costs of doing business, which affect what they sell for. Every business is in business to make money and if you think otherwise, you are mistaken. I do like to think most are trying to make an honest profit and not screw the customer.
I don't think anyone is suggesting manufacturers publish an MSRP, or that dealers expose this to customers. I think its clear that MSRP is a joke, and each dealer can have a different cost structure. Nobody wants to run their local hot tub dealer out of business, and I'm fine with them even making (gasp!) a profit off of my business. I'm not arguing any of this. I don't think consumers in generally are disputing any of these facts.
It's also pretty well understood that you can't just drive a hot tub off the lot like you can a car. We get all of this. but none of these considerations require getting pricing to be as obscure as it is. I think you're making assumptions that simply because costs are variable, and there are optional accessories, you can't expose pricing.
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I visited quite a few stores in my search. In the end I liked the stores that had pricing on the tubs when you walked through the door. They seemed more open and up front. I know that the price on the tub has decent margin and room for negotiating but it gives us both a starting point. Other stores I visited I usually played dumb to see what they come out with. This is when the greasy sales guys come out of there shell.. Mark up of $2-3k above what other stores selling the same tub have listed on them....
Sales is a greasy business. Hot tub sales is no different. The stores that want to be around for the long term and are not just out to make a quick buck with have honest and open pricing. Anything else and they will get a bad name for themselves... Its that easy.
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I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.
Have you tried publicizing your pricing?
No. The policy of the manufacturer is I can only post MSRP. If that is all you can see, you may choose to bypass my store thinking the price is too high, since all MSRP's are high. In my store, all of my sale signs show the MSRP for the hot tub with the package and what my everyday, or regular price is. During promotions, a "sidebar" piece is added indicating the sale price. Everyone is welcome to negotiate to their hearts desire. I have had people walk away because I would not meet their price demand, and that's fine.
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I visited quite a few stores in my search. In the end I liked the stores that had pricing on the tubs when you walked through the door. They seemed more open and up front. I know that the price on the tub has decent margin and room for negotiating but it gives us both a starting point. Other stores I visited I usually played dumb to see what they come out with. This is when the greasy sales guys come out of there shell.. Mark up of $2-3k above what other stores selling the same tub have listed on them....
Sales is a greasy business. Hot tub sales is no different. The stores that want to be around for the long term and are not just out to make a quick buck with have honest and open pricing. Anything else and they will get a bad name for themselves... Its that easy.
That is the definition of shady, in my opinion. I have had competitors not put prices on their spas and to me that is only done in an attempt to be dishonest. There is a difference between making a business sustaining profit and screwing the customer. Not showing prices is in my opinion meant to achieve the latter.
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I visited quite a few stores in my search. In the end I liked the stores that had pricing on the tubs when you walked through the door. They seemed more open and up front. I know that the price on the tub has decent margin and room for negotiating but it gives us both a starting point. Other stores I visited I usually played dumb to see what they come out with. This is when the greasy sales guys come out of there shell.. Mark up of $2-3k above what other stores selling the same tub have listed on them....
Sales is a greasy business. Hot tub sales is no different. The stores that want to be around for the long term and are not just out to make a quick buck with have honest and open pricing. Anything else and they will get a bad name for themselves... Its that easy.
Your post sums up the problem I run into. I have tried putting my best prices out on tubs, customers always think that it can be negotiated lower. I have also made my prices higher expecting negotiating and some just see the price on the tub and walk. It’s definitely not easy either way. Customers in general want to think they “win”. Currently I have MSRP with my sales price next to it. For the most part my pricing is what it is and a lot of people get mad because my price isn’t negotiable but they think they got a great deal down the road because he magically took $3000 off his price. At the end of the day we are selling tubs at the same profit margin with a different approach
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Exactly. If you give an honest, up front, best price and the guy down the street says his is normally $13k but this weekend it's $6k, some people will go with that guy because it's "a better deal". I've had this happen numerous times. There is no dealer in the world that can regularly drop 50% from their price and stay in business. Most dealers don't even have that much margin to begin with. People are often obsessed with getting the best deal and will believe the unscrupulous dealer who says this. The honest dealer loses because he "wouldn't negotiate more than a few hundred dollars". I prefer to be honest.
Another factor is that people don't know about hot tubs. Everyone knows that a Toyota is reliable, but nobody knows anything about hot tub brands. If you just give a number without having the opportunity to explain and justify the number, the customer will default to the best deal. Like costco spas. They are cheaper for a variety of reasons but they certainly are nowhere near the quality of a marquis, hot spring, bullfrog, etc.. But without the opportunity to explain this to the customer, the costco spa looks like a better deal.
Again, I think we could do a much better job as an industry but there are certain considerations that are lost when just getting pricing. Combine this with the fact that there are a lot of shady dealers out there who are willing to lie through their teeth (see "chemical free spas"), I totally understand why customers get frustrated and upset.
This is an interesting discussion and I'm glad we're having it. I appreciate hearing the consumer perspective and by no means do I intend to sound combative. Thank you for offering your experience and thoughts.
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I found only one store that had prices posted. All others I went to did not even discuss pricing until they fit you into a tub that met our needs. Then bam the msrp was dropped like a bomb on you. Then all of a sudden the what I can do for you price came into play that dropped by 7 to 8 thousand dollars off msrp. I can hold that price if you leave a deposit. Are you kidding me, how is this not shady. In the end we went with the dealer that had the msrp listed and offered his best price which in my opinion is the way to go. As a consumer how do I know what msrp is if it is not listed. I found this part of they buying process very frustrating as a consumer. The hot tub is the only purchase I have ever made where pricing in most retail locations is not posted, this as a consumer makes no sense to me at all. Very frustrating walking into a store on a budget not knowing what prices are of hot tubs, just crazy if you ask me. Just my two cents
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I found only one store that had prices posted. All others I went to did not even discuss pricing until they fit you into a tub that met our needs. Then bam the msrp was dropped like a bomb on you. Then all of a sudden the what I can do for you price came into play that dropped by 7 to 8 thousand dollars off msrp. I can hold that price if you leave a deposit. Are you kidding me, how is this not shady. In the end we went with the dealer that had the msrp listed and offered his best price which in my opinion is the way to go. As a consumer how do I know what msrp is if it is not listed. I found this part of they buying process very frustrating as a consumer. The hot tub is the only purchase I have ever made where pricing in most retail locations is not posted, this as a consumer makes no sense to me at all. Very frustrating walking into a store on a budget not knowing what prices are of hot tubs, just crazy if you ask me. Just my two cents
Therein lies another frustrating thing for me. Some manufacturers list a MSRP that isn’t too much higher then what the tub should be sold for (Marquis for instance) while others will list some crazy MSRP prices (my area hydropool, Master and lazy boy). So say I offer $1000 off MSRP but down the road at the Master dealership they are giving $6000 off. A consumer is going to automatically assume they are getting a better deal with the Master. As a dealer it drives me as crazy as you guys the end consumers. One of the things I’ve noticed as a trend is manufacturers offering better price guidelines on there website. I know Hot Sorings, Caldera, Javuzzi and Sundance do this. Probably others as well but those are the ones I’ve noticed. I do appreciate the buyers perspective on this as well. Keep the comments flowing
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I though the exact opposite. I took it as how can a manufacturer have a ridiculous msrp and then the dealer gives you 8000 grand off. I take that as is this truly the msrp or is it a made up price only to let the consumer think that they have just got the deal of the century. I think this is the absolute wrong way to do business. Let me know what a reasonable msrp is and then let me know what your best price is. Take it or leave it. Every dealer needs to turn a profit or they will not be there to support the customers who have purchased and been loyal to them. Example I can buy chemicals cheaper online but will continue to by from my dealer. It is called building a relationship because at some point down the road I will need them I am sure. This sales tactic was used in the used car industry for years and look at the reputation that industry got over the years. I think somethings has to change in he hot tub industry on how sales and pricing are done. As a consumer I am willing to pay a little more for what I think is a better product and better service and representation from the manufacturer on how they want to sell their product etc.
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A lot of good comments here including from dealers. And I trust that there a lot of good dealers out there, and on this forum. I certainly have no problem with dealers making a good living and turning a profit. I will happily pay for good product and good service.
BUT............
If it wasn't for HTU I might still be looking around and wondering what is the best tub. What struck me though even on Chris' site is that although there is lots of info about marketing spin vs good quality build, there still isn't a real lot about price.
The MSRP bit of this discussion is literally laughable. I loved telling my friends about that little curve ball. You sit down to talk price and the $18K tub comes down in price $5K in five minutes...but wait...here it comes...there is a $1K "factory incentive" right now and the price is now $12K! Oh yeah? Is that how it's going to be? Are we really going to play this game? Why don't we just have a little respect for each other and NOT try that one on for size OK? Or we can keep playing and I will leave your store wondering where how many other aces are stashed up your sleeve. I would be embarrassed to pitch that BS day in day out. How is a sales guy supposed to believe in the product when that game is being played?
The bottom line for me remains that there needs to be more disclosure. Nothing I have read from dealers has changed that.
Silversun said it best: "I think the real reason why dealers don't show pricing is not because they can't, or that they would be chased out of business, but because it's in their best financial interest to be opaque. The dealer is at a significant advantage if they can select the price from which to start negotiations."
Until manufacturers and dealers get past this resistance to price disclosure, consumers will perceive them as (to borrow Michael Russell's word) greasy.
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If it wasn't for HTU I might still be looking around and wondering what is the best tub. What struck me though even on Chris' site is that although there is lots of info about marketing spin vs good quality build, there still isn't a real lot about price
Until manufacturers and dealers get past this resistance to price disclosure, consumers will perceive them as (to borrow Michael Russell's word) greasy.
He's right smack in the industry or sales, self promotion so I'm not surprised he isn't trying to reason or explain the variation of marketing by others or speaking unfavorably of manufacturer policy on MSRP guidelines. Reputable or fair-minded dealers have to compete with some shady others and I understand they all have their own way of trying to cut through the fog but what works for customer A doesn't' always work for customer B. There are plenty of customers who are as shady and narrow minded as some dealers or salespeople out there so it's not all Cookie Cutter simple.
In some sales areas like cars, appliances , electronics etc... manufactures have some say or control on how their product is represented. If enforced, some stores lose the name brands that had a higher tier of expectations or professionalism. Maybe this isn't happening in Hot Tub sales -- a huge ticket item that deserves to be professionally represented.
I found his information pretty helpful and believe if shoppers read between the lines some and once armed with information, they can vette to some degree as apropos. If one truly lets the "greaseball", high pressure circus clown be their go-to person on sales and service in the process of spending thousands or ten of thousands of dollars, they let it happen.
Too bad stores can't just sell off dealer invoice showing cost and have it a "Cost Plus" basis as car and suv or trucks were doing starting in the early 1990's. If a customer won't allow a store to sell and make a fair or reasonable profit, let them walk down the block to the gorilla suit sidewalk dancers.
In 20 years of sales/ marketing, the only foundation I found that worked well was; Deliver more than you promise, represent quality you don't have to apologize for, and back up everything you say or have with facts or customer testimony. Some customers or business is okay to let walk away.
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Well my Tub is in.. Its about 1 week ahead of Schedule. I was told 4 weeks to the warehouse and about another week to me. They made it to my house in 3.5 weeks....
Hydro and filled last night. I have hit 95 over night and trying to figure out chemicals now. sooo much fun ;-)
Thanks for all the help gents!
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Congrats, you got it fast. You are going to love it.
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I did run into one issue with Hydro. The conduit did not line up with hole provided from the far corner I planned to come in. Because the cover lifter was already on I could not fully remove the panel to see if I could adjust the conduit. I was running Tek cable though so I just ran along the side of the tub to the corner closest to the termination points and in that corner instead. I talked to the dealer today. He is going to have service guy stop by to have a look to see if its a user error or a build error. Really not concerned about it. The Tek is run between the house and the tub and not an area anyone should be anyways. Even if we can adjust the conduit I will probably leave the tek where it is.. It would be a couple hours work to pull it out, restrip the tek to the new length and pull it through again.
Chemicals I am still finding a balance... The analyst in me really wants to get a good water test kit.. The lazy guy in me wants to live with the test strips provided... I am going to try and bear with the strips and see what I run into.. The dealer is a 40 minute drive from the house so free water tests there are not an option to often. There is a couple stores in town though. Will just need to figure out what chems they sell and how they compare.
I was leaning towards going with Spa Marvel.. At this time I am happy without. If I find balance an issue I may try it.
Last note. I filled the tub with my unfiltered well water. I totally forgot to put the inline filters I bought on the hose. I ended up with some orange staining around the edge of the tub (ring around the tub). It rubbed off by hand. Dealer through in some mineral/scale stuff to help clear it out. Filters were also pretty orange. So I pulled them out to wash and put in some new ones..
Probably over kill!
thanks all,
Mike
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I read some stories and watched a lot of videos about the conduit not lining up with the right spot on the underside of the tub and overkilled my planning on that as a result. When the conduit was being trenched in I noticed the electrician was off by six inches and had him move it. That was stressful because I didn't want to take the effort to run it underneath only to find out we missed the mark. It worked fine but I did stress that one.
I've been using test strips and they are fine. I had some cloudy water and a ring around the tub one time (from an overly scented soap I used for a day when I ran out of Ivory) but I fixed it with some choriaid. I went to a local chemical supply place (not the dealer) when my alkalinity and ph were low, got some alkalinity increaser and quickly got the water back in balance. They ran a water test and gave me the detailed report on the water which greatly supplements and confirms the test strips. By all means go to the guys in town rather than a long drive to the dealer.
I'm using Spa Marvel and bought a one year supply from HTU in appreciation of the great info I got there. Only a month in so far so time will tell on that but so far so good.
This week I ordered a second set of filters to rotate in when I do the overnight clean so I don't have to shut down the tub. I'm told that it's a good idea to let them dry out fully after the deep clean which should prolong their lives.
I used the x10 filter when filling the tub. Can you use a sequestering agent to make up for not using the filter?
Most of all......HOW DO YOU LIKE THE PERFORMANCE??????
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When I installed my, tub built my deck etc. I added an outdoor faucet the type that goes thru the wall and drains down as to not freeze. As it happened the location was behind the kitchen fridge and I made my connection with PEX tubing under the sink. I mounted a mixing valve setup under the sink so the water to the deck can be adjusted between pure hot to pure cold. I then made a short hose that would be easy to drain to just reach around the deck about 12’ long and gave it a fire hose nozzle that makes a powerful concentrated spray.
What clogs up the filter is a greasy, waxy stuff as it is oils and soaps and dead skin and such that get dissolved in the hot water. Blasting a filter with cold water is like cleaning a bacon frying pan with cold water it just makes more sludge. What cleans a filter best is even hotter water.
I go in the house reach under the sink flip the valve to pure hot and spray the filter pleats for about 10 minutes. You can just watch the color of the filter return to white as the dirt washes away. The dealer when we bought our tub said at least once a year replace the filter ours is going on 4 years old and looks new.
As a side benefit of having hot water on the deck is ice removal from the steps and walk way and also the cover. I blast the ice a little and it comes loose from the deck and I can shovel it off easy. It is very hard on a cover to be folded open with chunks of frozen stuff on it. When we have friends over I hit the deck and stairs with hot water right before we go out and they like the fact they are not walking bare foot thru snow.
When the tub needs topped off hot water also works great as it doesn’t cool the water.
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The conduit for me is the conduit in the tub itself. I was planning all along of running Tek cable (heavy armoured/rubberized cable) directly to the tub. The corner of the tub I went in though the conduit in the tub does not line up with the hole in the tub. It could probably be adjusted but I had the installer put the cover lifter on which block the panel I would need to remove to adjust it. In the end I just ran the tek along the outside of the tub. Its hidden and out of sight so its ok.
As my well water needs some PH Decreaser and Calcium increaser. I have most of the majors covered off already. More bottles of chems then I know what they all are :) Still only a couple days in so trying to find that happy place. Using the tub twice a day is not helping I am sure! Really my well water is quite good. The biggest issue I have is that it has Iron Bacteria in it. Out of the well though I am getting a PH of 7.9, Hardness of 106ppm and alkalinity of 181. So really we are not to far off of balanced. To deal with the iron bacteria the dealer suggested some descaller which I used. Ring went away..
Performance wise.. Love the tub. The master seemed to have slightly better pressure out of the seats which still seems to hold true. That said the Hot zone jets in the Marquis kicks A$$. The two big jets in the Epic are super strong. I love them!
All said super happy. The conduit thing is minor inconvenience. Fit and finish on the tub is great. I don't like the small plastic caps they use over the screws. They break off super easy. Not the end of the world though as you don't see them from the deck.
I read some stories and watched a lot of videos about the conduit not lining up with the right spot on the underside of the tub and overkilled my planning on that as a result. When the conduit was being trenched in I noticed the electrician was off by six inches and had him move it. That was stressful because I didn't want to take the effort to run it underneath only to find out we missed the mark. It worked fine but I did stress that one.
I've been using test strips and they are fine. I had some cloudy water and a ring around the tub one time (from an overly scented soap I used for a day when I ran out of Ivory) but I fixed it with some choriaid. I went to a local chemical supply place (not the dealer) when my alkalinity and ph were low, got some alkalinity increaser and quickly got the water back in balance. They ran a water test and gave me the detailed report on the water which greatly supplements and confirms the test strips. By all means go to the guys in town rather than a long drive to the dealer.
I'm using Spa Marvel and bought a one year supply from HTU in appreciation of the great info I got there. Only a month in so far so time will tell on that but so far so good.
This week I ordered a second set of filters to rotate in when I do the overnight clean so I don't have to shut down the tub. I'm told that it's a good idea to let them dry out fully after the deep clean which should prolong their lives.
I used the x10 filter when filling the tub. Can you use a sequestering agent to make up for not using the filter?
Most of all......HOW DO YOU LIKE THE PERFORMANCE??????
-
My issue is the water through my filtration system is not ideal for the tub. My softner removes all hardness down to 0. It also throws the alkalinity and PH off a little bit....
My hose is actually right beside the tub. I changed it to bypass the filtration system as we use it for the gardens. It would not be much to put a bypass switch in to have either though or mix in some hot.. Something to think about. Thanks for the suggestion.
Filters I plan on washing inside in my laundry sink. Its only a few steps inside the house from the tub and I have hot water there. I plan on swapping filters out for washing. Will see how that goes for now.
Still lots to learn and find that happy place in dealing with the chemicals.
thanks all
Mike
When I installed my, tub built my deck etc. I added an outdoor faucet the type that goes thru the wall and drains down as to not freeze. As it happened the location was behind the kitchen fridge and I made my connection with PEX tubing under the sink. I mounted a mixing valve setup under the sink so the water to the deck can be adjusted between pure hot to pure cold. I then made a short hose that would be easy to drain to just reach around the deck about 12’ long and gave it a fire hose nozzle that makes a powerful concentrated spray.
What clogs up the filter is a greasy, waxy stuff as it is oils and soaps and dead skin and such that get dissolved in the hot water. Blasting a filter with cold water is like cleaning a bacon frying pan with cold water it just makes more sludge. What cleans a filter best is even hotter water.
I go in the house reach under the sink flip the valve to pure hot and spray the filter pleats for about 10 minutes. You can just watch the color of the filter return to white as the dirt washes away. The dealer when we bought our tub said at least once a year replace the filter ours is going on 4 years old and looks new.
As a side benefit of having hot water on the deck is ice removal from the steps and walk way and also the cover. I blast the ice a little and it comes loose from the deck and I can shovel it off easy. It is very hard on a cover to be folded open with chunks of frozen stuff on it. When we have friends over I hit the deck and stairs with hot water right before we go out and they like the fact they are not walking bare foot thru snow.
When the tub needs topped off hot water also works great as it doesn’t cool the water.
-
I haven’t tried it but one hot tub dealer in our area suggested using the dishwasher also. He warned to use a setting that didn’t have heated drying.
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Hey Bud..
You mentioned the dishwasher and it reminded me of an article I skimmed over back when I was looking at tubs..
https://www.hottubworks.com/blog/clean-spa-filters-in-the-dishwasher/ (https://www.hottubworks.com/blog/clean-spa-filters-in-the-dishwasher/)
In short the author felt it did not clean the filter adequately.
There are some other suggestions to look at...
Mike
I haven’t tried it but one hot tub dealer in our area suggested using the dishwasher also. He warned to use a setting that didn’t have heated drying.
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...the Hot zone jets in the Marquis kicks A$$. The two big jets in the Epic are super strong. I love them!
I remember hitting those jets on a wet test....sweeeet.
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Hey Bud..
You mentioned the dishwasher and it reminded me of an article I skimmed over back when I was looking at tubs..
https://www.hottubworks.com/blog/clean-spa-filters-in-the-dishwasher/ (https://www.hottubworks.com/blog/clean-spa-filters-in-the-dishwasher/)
In short the author felt it did not clean the filter adequately.
There are some other suggestions to look at...
Mike
I haven’t tried it but one hot tub dealer in our area suggested using the dishwasher also. He warned to use a setting that didn’t have heated drying.
I tend to agree with that write up and haven’t tried the dishwasher and likely wont. The only exception to those directions and I feel is a really big one is in using really hot water. And a lot of concentrated pressure. The spray back I get from my jet nozzle is more than I would like to do indoors so I just do it on the deck even in the winter. I wait for a break in the weather like a January thaw day and do it then.
Another tip I have found works for me is timing your water changes to work around winter. When I can I like to change the water about now. Get in and really clean out the shell good and flush it all out. Come spring or late winter if the water is looking a little old but its too cold to be out there draining the tub and cleaning it I do a partial drain and fill. Taking a third to half the water out will do amazing things to your test numbers and leave the water looking much better and will buy you a month or two on the water.
I have a hose coiled up on the end of the deck with one end attached to my houses waster water sewer line that goes back to the waste treatment plant. The other end has the hose connection to the drain valve on the tub. Takes about a minute to attach it and open the valve. No flooding the back yard with hot water and making a ice rink. I drain it down and then add hot back in until the water heater runs out of hot and then mixed with the cold the tub hardly drops at all. Within a hour or two we are back in it.
I actually thought about using this method all year long and only doing a major change and fill once a year.
What I normally do right before I change the water or do a partial change is get in the tub the night before and take a micro fiber cloth and wipe it down really good. We do this actually about once a month normally the day before I clean the filter. Keeps the acrylic as slick as new.