Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stabone on December 06, 2004, 03:09:40 pm
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To start with a little background on myself, I have been in the pool and spa industry from the time I was a teenager, and I have serviced, built, sold, all types of pools and spas. That being said, after reading some of the forums on this site I would like to encourage some of you "know it alls" to educate yourselves on a particular brand before lumping it into a group of thermal panel spas, and assuming the components and materials are the same as what the others offer. The brand I am refering to is Arctic Spas!! I am a dealer, so I do have certain amount of bias, and no brand of spa is perfect, and there are alot of great products in this industry. I have sold and serviced both full foam and thermal panel tubs, because Arctics are more similar design to that of a thermal panel, they get throw in with that group. All the problems I hear on this site about thermal panel spas and have seen for myself in the field are that thermal panel spas are just full foam tubs with out the foam. And as a result have issues with piping, shell structure, and operating cost. Believe me, I never thought I would sell anything but full foam because of these issues!!I believe, and it is only my opinion, that Arctics are truly different from top to bottom and use the correct materials, design, innovations to make them really in a league of their own. If any one has interests or questions about Arctics I would like to hear from you. I did not put this up to argue with you full foam guys, I respect your products, I would just like some openminded discussion!! And save the, " I know someone that bought an Arctic and had problems with it", Well guess what I can probly say the same about what you sell.
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Arctics are truly different from top to bottom and use the correct materials, design, innovations to make them really in a league of their own. If any one has interests or questions about Arctics I would like to hear from you.
Explain how an Arctic spa is better than a Coleman spa ???
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..and here I thought I was the only Arctic guy on this site (user--not a dealer) - :)
I have only have my Arctic Summit Signature for 3 months and I have been happy so far. I hope this trend continues ;)
Jc
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I'm sure Arctics aren't better than a Coleman in all areas, so I can't even start that arguement, would you like to narrow your question down a little. I don't think I said an Arctic was better than anything, only to learn more about a product than it is not full foam so it must be like every other non full foam tub.
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This should be interesting......
Spahappy :D
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I'd love to see an Artic spa, but according to the dealer locater on the website, "Sorry no store within 40 miles of you!!!" I guess that guy 41 miles from me is out of luck :)
Lets not try to hit this guy too hard, I'm sure he will be another valuable asset to the forum.
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I would be more than happy to discuss with you. Should we take it feature by feature, or claim by claim?
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I'm sure Arctics aren't better than a Coleman in all areas, so I can't even start that arguement, would you like to narrow your question down a little. I don't think I said an Arctic was better than anything, only to learn more about a product than it is not full foam so it must be like every other non full foam tub.
When you say "Arctics are truly different from top to bottom and use the correct materials, design, innovations to make them really in a league of their own" to me implies that they better than the rest.
So... let's start with what are the correct materials?
Maybe you can inform us.
Reason I ask is, last Arctic spa we serviced had Gecko pack and controls, 56 frame A.O.Smith motors, waterways wet ends, waterways jets, cedar cabinet, fiberglass base and 4 inches of insulation on the cabinet and base, fiberglass backed acrylic shell, flex pipe plumbing.
Would these be the same materials found in some full foam brand name spas? ;D
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I know why they are so much better. Remember that independent energy efficiency study… that really showed me how great they were.
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Stabone,
Take it easy on this one guys. He has a point. "I'm sure Arctics aren't as good as Colemans in all areas."
If there were only one type of buyer and all of his/her needs were met by Coleman, then we could say that Arctics/Calspa/XYZ Spas should never be considered in the purchasing proccess. FORTUNATELY there are more than one type of buyer. And for some of them, Arctic will meet their needs.
There are plenty of buyers out ther, competition is a good thing! If we all sold the same brand, the majority of us would be out of jobs or even worse...working in IT! ;D
Cheers
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I would be more than happy to discuss with you. Should we take it feature by feature, or claim by claim?
Me too! You can deal with Chas first and I'll wait by ringside for a tag!
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First of all, thank you to everyone who shares their considerable knowledge on this board. I just bought my spa a month ago and this board/information was invaluable. So I thought I would try and return the favor by explaining my shopping experience and decision process.
There were two major things that when I was looking at various spas, turned me off to two dealers and consequently their product. The 1st was the Hot Springs dealer who told me that by using the special HS breaker my tub would use less electricity because the circ pump would only be drawing from the 20amp circuit instead of a standard 50amp. I don't know why he went with this story since the circ pump should be drawing the same amount of amps on either circuit. If he would have told me something along the lines of "The benefit is that if the heater trips the 30 amp breaker during cold weather, the circ pump still has a chance to prevent freezing(I just made that story up)” I could have seen the rational. But not money saving due to breaking the same load between two breakers. It's really too bad because I liked the HS vanguard but they were the only dealer.
The second was the Arctic Spa dealer that showed me the floor model was only heated by the pump. I like the idea of easy access, and once again I like the spa models. If he had just explained how Arctic try to recoup otherwise lost heat and it provides an additional benefit to their easy access philosophy, I would have been happy with the explanation. But don't tell me some BS story about heating a 500 gallon spa with the pump. At least not on a $10,000 spa, that should be saved for a $499.00 car.
The third dealer I went to had nothing negative to say about other manufactures he just explained what features his spa had and answered every question I had honestly. When I asked about various options he explained why certain options were nice and told me why he would recommend against one I wanted. When I explained I was trying to decide between him and HS, he told me I couldn't go wrong either way. Needless to say, he got the sale.
Maybe I'm wrong and if a HS or Arctic dealer would like to explain why I am, that would be great.
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from what I have read here on on other boards the problem that most have with Artic is not their spas but of their claims of of absolute superiority to all others...I am sure they have some nice feature some of which might but truly unique to Artic...but the sales presentation is way over the top and that is why they get slammed so much.....
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Wow! Nice... ;D...too bad about the Vanguard! But I agree, if the salesperson had said something like that to me, I would have walked, also! I dealt with great people when I looked, and Arctic was not a choice I could consider, no dealer here!
May I ask which tub you got...or I might guess...Sundance Optima (sorry guys, they just seem to sell like hot cakes)!!! ;D
First of all, thank you to everyone who shares their considerable knowledge on this board. I just bought my spa a month ago and this board/information was invaluable. So I thought I would try and return the favor by explaining my shopping experience and decision process.
There were two major things that when I was looking at various spas, turned me off to two dealers and consequently their product. The 1st was the Hot Springs dealer who told me that by using the special HS breaker my tub would use less electricity because the circ pump would only be drawing from the 20amp circuit instead of a standard 50amp. I don't know why he went with this story since the circ pump should be drawing the same amount of amps on either circuit. If he would have told me something along the lines of "The benefit is that if the heater trips the 30 amp breaker during cold weather, the circ pump still has a chance to prevent freezing(I just made that story up)” I could have seen the rational. But not money saving due to breaking the same load between two breakers. It's really too bad because I liked the HS vanguard but they were the only dealer.
The second was the Arctic Spa dealer that showed me the floor model was only heated by the pump. I like the idea of easy access, and once again I like the spa models. If he had just explained how Arctic try to recoup otherwise lost heat and it provides an additional benefit to their easy access philosophy, I would have been happy with the explanation. But don't tell me some BS story about heating a 500 gallon spa with the pump. At least not on a $10,000 spa, that should be saved for a $499.00 car.
The third dealer I went to had nothing negative to say about other manufactures he just explained what features his spa had and answered every question I had honestly. When I asked about various options he explained why certain options were nice and told me why he would recommend against one I wanted. When I explained I was trying to decide between him and HS, he told me I couldn't go wrong either way. Needless to say, he got the sale.
Maybe I'm wrong and if a HS or Arctic dealer would like to explain why I am, that would be great.
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from what I have read here on on other boards the problem that most have with Artic is not their spas but of their claims of of absolute superiority to all others...I am sure they have some nice feature some of which might but truly unique to Artic...but the sales presentation is way over the top and that is why they get slammed so much.....
You got it. I love the looks of the tub and to this logical guy it would seem they could do with 4 inches of insulation what others have to fill the cabinet to do as far as energy effieciency (the 16 hours a day the motor is not running still has me perplexed as far as heat loss) but that's another issue. The sale's pitch is bunk but the tubs seem OK, as good as 10 or 15 other brands, and anyone convinced of there superiority because of a sales pitch or a training class is also bunk. Just my simple opinion!
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Hey all! Just arrived back from Vegas this morning at 7:00am. Got a restful 3 hours of sleep and I'm ready to go! :-/
A quick thanks to Mendocino for a great tour of downtown (old) Vegas and some great company over a wonderful steak dinner. We stayed at Caesars Palace right on the strip and if not for Mendo, I would have never seen the amazing sights of this classic area. The poor guy just wanted to get home and I dragged him out for sightseeing. ;D He did teach me how to play at roulette and we both walked away a little richer. ;)
Mendocino is just a little guy about 5'5" 160lbs ;). OK...he's a big dude and even I felt small standing beside him being 6' 230lbs! He's a genuine guy with a heart of gold and I'm glad we got some time to spend together. He's the type of guy that you would want as your best friend and it takes less than 30 seconds to get that impression when you meet him.
Unfortunately, I didn't get to spend a great deal of time with Stuart and his gorgeous wife. We chatted in our booth briefly and he is the spitting image of Garth Brooks when he wears his cowboy hat! ;D That's a compliment Stu! ;)
As for this post, I have a few questions but will wait my turn after Stuart. I promise not to jump in from the top ropes! Stick your hand out Stuart when you're done buddy.. ;D
Steve
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor, and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
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Steve....
Hey Thanks for the nice words...It was a great time...I hope the show was a big success for you and that the little money we made playing roulette stayed in your pocket and did not find its was back to the casinos...It was a real pleasure meeting you....Hope to see you again maybe February
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor, and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
Thats no big feat on the showroom floor.The test is when it's 10 to 20 below and the wind is blowing 30 mph and the tub sits on a hill with nothing anound it...
Spahappy :D
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You still didn't answer the question, and at those temperatures it will still decrease heater use
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor, and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
YES! I can heat my tub up to 104 outside here in Edmonton at -35C, unplug it out of the wall ;) and the water will start to boil within the hour with the cover off (after me and my 12 friends have stood on it that is). ::)
I thought all tubs did that? ???
Steve
(That was the middle rope...) ;)
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor, and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
I do not think that would be disputed by anyone who also sells a thermo type design....from what I recently saw in Vegas Hydro-pool may have something very similar I am sure Steve can comment on it....Here is something that happened on our showroom floor.....spa was unplugged for 4 days not just the heater, the cover was on and the temp went from 102 to 95....now how does that loss compare to yours.....
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Also, in those condititions you are refering, if your tub lost power how long would it take for your equipment to freeze up, being on the outside of your insulation
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I thought we were comparing Arctic to Coleman not full foam
Spahappy
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Who is that question directed at and what product are you referring to? ???
Anyone elsle getting the feeling we aren't going to get real answers and just more salesmanship from the Arctic group? ???
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If you want to talk about something that is no big feat you just said it, I think a Home Depot spa could sit in a show room with the cover on and hold temps like that
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I thought we were comparing Arctic to Coleman not full foam
Spahappy
I do not think the original post even mentions Coleman
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If you want to talk about something that is no big feat you just said it, I think a Home Depot spa could sit in a show room with the cover on and hold temps like that
really spoken like a true Artic salesman ....never commenting on whats set before just slamming the others this is why you get hit so hard by most everyone else....perhaps you were JA in another life....
if you really want to see how it compares unplug your spa for 4 full days and let it sit....and if nothing else see for yourself what temp loss you have and if it exceeds 7degrees...
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I do not think the original post even mentions Coleman
No the original post does not mention Coleman, but wetone asked how an Arctic compared to a Coleman, since they are both thermopane.
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Do coleman spas now have a fiberglass shell with no insulation on it, I don't see to many these days, but last I saw they were insulating cabinet and shell
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Also I will have to look into hydro-pool I am not familiar with that product, I am sure there will be alot of similar design to an Arctic coming out, or already out there.
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And to you spahappy if it is no big feat, and your tub can't even do it, what does that say????
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Hydropool has been around for 25 + years. Please learn your industry if you plan on developing any credibility here prior to suggesting we all copied the mighty Arctic spa. This guy is a piece of work... ::)
Why do they all have this same mentality and shining personalities? Are you guys robots? ;D
Personally, I don't care about comparing (slamming) other manufacturers. Here are basic questions for starters...
What makes an Arctic any more efficient than any other thermal pane spa?
How do you address the possibilities of a leak with unsupported plumbing?
Where is the air drawn from for the jets?
Is the cabinet 100% closed (sealed)
What is the R value of the cover? At what point does the thickness become redundant?
What HP pump are used and what id the ratio which determines this?
Why are many of the Arctic molds similar to ones used 8+ years ago?
How do armrests work in a spa filled with water?
What do you base monthly operating costs on when quoting to customers?
How does your "independant study" play a role in your presentation?
Where are you located?
I'll start with these easy ones first. Sorry to butt in boys!
Steve
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What "point" is Stabone trying to make?? This Stabone person reminds me of JA,but minus a few dozen IQ points.
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I have to go now, but will return, something for you boys to chew on while I am gone, do any of your products have, full fiberglass floors that require no foundation, 5-4 inch taper cover with 2lb foam, molded with no cuting of the foam, totally self supporting shell, or offer powder coated Aluminium cabinets. Or reflex torsion hose, that glues over all fittings, inter wraped with pvc instead of steel wrapped flex pipe, not designed to hold and flex with water weight.
Don't think so!!!
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I am still waiting to find out about that coleman insulation, and also hydro-pool, do you know how many hydro this and hydro that products I see, don't really standout,
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Gotta go already? Well thanks for addressing the questions and showing the true make-up of an Arctic salesperson once again! You guys are amazing and it makes us all feel better that true geniuses like yourself are steering the ship! ;D
Did we not do this thread about half a dozen times before with these Arctic sales guys with the same results? It would be interesting if someone from there could be a stand-up sort of guy and have an open debate. Then again, we do thoroughly enjoy all of their sales pitches right? ::) :D
Steve
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Unfortunately, I didn't get to spend a great deal of time with Stuart and his gorgeous wife. We chatted in our booth briefly and he is the spitting image of Garth Brooks when he wears his cowboy hat! That's a compliment Stu!
As for this post, I have a few questions but will wait my turn after Stuart. I promise not to jump in from the top ropes! Stick your hand out Stuart when you're done buddy..
Steve buddy, one of the bigger disappointments is that I didn’t get to spend more time hanging with you and mendo. BTW, the only way that I have a woman that looks like my wife is I’ve convinced her that I am Garth!
I have to go ahead and tag here because I don’t have the time nor energy to deal with this Arctic nut right now so you guys go for it. I will however throw a few comments out.
I don’t want a spa that has no insulation on the shell or pluming.
I think the aluminum cabinet is crazy and a foolish gimmick but again only time will tell.
If you think you’re the only company to have a self supporting base your confused (common with arctic) even a little company like Great Lakes has one now. Jacuzzi was doing that almost 20 years ago and went away from it for problems.
Spa Depot has the same cover and a Galvalume frame to boot. I have done the same test many times with their thermo pane type insulation with little to no heat loss. I wonder how many customers can give the same testimonial – where they shut the heat off and have not loss with the cover open? I doubt many.
I would love to have an arctic alongside a D1 and contaminate both spas to see which can keep up with the filtration. Why don’t you concentrate less on items that give you a great sales pitch and more on items that make sense for therapy, cleanliness and longevity?
Deprogramming a customer from an Arctic salespitch is amazing but once they see the light they are customers for life! I can’t imagine how hard it would be to deprogram an arctic Salesman!
Like cal spas, there are many more industry pros that are insulted with the Arctic pitch than believe it! Many of us support one another’s brands even though we compete against each other daily yet I know few industry pros that would support Arctic as a competitor….
BTW, I could throw in a pitch for just about any other brand with proprietary features and ask who else had it. The real question is who else wants it?
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I have to go now, but will return, something for you boys to chew on while I am gone, do any of your products have, full fiberglass floors that require no foundation, 5-4 inch taper cover with 2lb foam, molded with no cuting of the foam, totally self supporting shell, or offer powder coated Aluminium cabinets. Or reflex torsion hose, that glues over all fittings, inter wraped with pvc instead of steel wrapped flex pipe, not designed to hold and flex with water weight.
Don't think so!!!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! Did everyone else hear that sound too???? BIG can o' worms opened with that one.
I really don't know where to start on this one..............
Does anyone Know what happens to powder coated aluminum when it gets scratched???? For all of you dealers who also sell patty o'furniture, you know the answer to that one. Lots of beautiful looking orange spots ;D
glues over all fittings???? What the heck does that mean??? Call me crazy but most all of the BIG BOYS now use not only glue to hold the plumbing together but also barbed fittings and compression clamps (which are a REAL BEOTCH to not only remove but also to get back on without the proper tools).
Fiberglass floor...................well I'm sure if this was the best thing since sliced bread EVERYONE would be using them. For one Fiberglass is very susceptible to humidity. Hence, when placing a spa they are often slid into place. This can cause microscopic cracks in the base.........Humidity is easily absorbed into fiberglass thus causing the microscopic cracks to widen. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiberglass) For more info on Fiberglass.
5-4 inch tapered cover: that would give the cover a slight 1 inch pitch.............why are spa covers tapered???? To allow snow, ice and water to slide off of the cover, thus why MOST manufacturers use covers with a 2 inch pitch. Now the 2 LB density foam is great, i will admit that that is a good thing, we often have customers get the 2 LB foam when they order a replacement cover. But let's face facts...........most manufacturers use a cover that has 1.5LB density foam, and our customers have NEVER had any complaints on energy costs in the winter (it commonly gets well below zero here in the winter, not to mention the nearly 200" of white stuff we get annually).
As for the lil "test" you did.................Well we sell a few brands of spas among them is Hawkeye spas which DO NOT come with a circ pump. we have one on our show room floor. Now due to the size of the pump in this spa it's not uncommon for it to trip it's breaker (we have it on a 50 AMP currently, it needs a 60 AMP breaker. And NO we are not going to install a new breaker b/c once the current inventory is gone we won't be reordering that brand due to issues we have them). It did this one week and we left it off b/c we did not know at that time what was causing the problem, and 5 days went by before our spa tech had a chance to look at it........the spa was originally 100 degrees, in the five days it was not running it only lost 5 degrees. Granted these are partial foam spas. We also happen to sell D-1 Spas. When the temp goes above the set temp on a D-1 spa it goes into a "cool Down" mode. this effectively shuts off the heater and circ pump. When this happens in the show room, we have to open the covers to get the temp down, b/c if we don't it literally takes 3-5 days for the temp to come down on its own.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......the sweet sound of a DIFFERENT kind o'can being opened up ;D
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor,
I don't quite see the point, nor do I see what this is supposed to prove. Try to keep temp without running your pumps and see what happens - not that THAT makes any sense either. I can set our spas for 104, and they stay at 104. If the heat has to kick in for a minute now and then, it does so.
They will stay at the set temp even in warm weather I might add - and that's not something that may be said of tubs which allow a direct path for the heat from the pumps into the water. But our small circ pump continues to run. and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
Yes, the facts are the facts. But the bottom line is still this: set a FF tub for a temp, and it will hold that temp in hot or cold weather. There is no unwanted heat gain in warm weather, and no heat loss in cold weather. Set it and forget it. And you don't have to monkey with timeclock settings to be sure you aren't running the big pumps too much or too little.
And if the FF tub in question is equipped with a small circ pump as HotSpring tubs are, and you want to fool around disconnecting things, go ahead. It will get up to 95 and stay there with the heat turned off. Run the jets for an hour with the lid closed and it will boost it up to 104 or more. So don't tell me that a HotSpring doesn't recycle heat from the pumps - fact are facts.
Now - a simple question, which Roger has already posed: if your tubs are heating by the waste heat from the motors, what happens the other 20 hours a day when the pumps are shut off? Now you simply have less insulation than a FF spa. Facts are facts.
One more little fact: motors will last longer if they have cool or even cold air circulating through them - or if they are sitting in a cool or cold environment. HotSpring - and some others - draw outside air to cool the motors. HS then sends it into the air system of the hydromassage jets to recycle as much heat as we can. But the motors are not sitting in a 'hot box.'
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Excelent points from Chas as always.
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Chas...
Thanks for mentioning that...I thought it was simple enough to know that ff will hold more heat when the pumps are off than will a thermo when also off...I think it is easy for most all to agree that when the pumps are running a thermo design spa works very well.....it when they are not that debate "heats up"....but as I mentioned before it is superiority of Artic and its salespeople that so many have problems with.....I believe they build a nice spa.....very over priced but nice....well nice enough I guess.....as Coleman was mentioned before here similar in many ways.....but it at a much better value.....
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Funny thing is - when I look at the pictures of actic spas on their web site, I see what looks like about four to six inches of foam insulation. That's about all that some 'full foam' spas have in the narrow areas.
In my opinion - backed by a lot of dialog with insulation folks as well as reading and surfing - I believe that the first four to six inches does well over 99% of the heat-retention. So when you create a design like Artic, all you do is give up a few things. Things like: control over the temp in warm weather, noise suppression, support for the plumbing, equipment longevity, and structural integrity.
Hmm. Not a good trade-off in my opinion.
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Lori,
I did get the Sundance Optima, good guess. And if the dealer had been as negative about another manufacture as some of the above posts, I would probably have just gotten out of a D1.
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Chas,
Sorry I didn't wait for the tag but thanks for wading in anyway! I've always had to question a design where you spray that much foam on the cabinet and then leave it hang there without anything supporting the other side, won't it have a tendency to pull away from the cabinet? Or, even worse, pull the cabinet inwards?
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I wanted to start simple for the poor guy and progress to the tough ones for him... ;D
Another Arctic guys leaves bloodied and bruised. It's a sad sight but a common one! :-/
Steve
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Also, in those condititions you are refering, if your tub lost power how long would it take for your equipment to freeze up, being on the outside of your insulation
Stabone, Regaurding your climate controlled heating test. we all agree any spa will hold heat well in the showroom,so I have a few more questions for for.
Have you ever disconnected the heater on a tub outside?
What was the outside temp, and how long did you leave the heater off?
What was the water temp at the time you disconnected the heater? How did you disconnect the heater?
How long did the jet pump or pumps run? On high or low?
What size pumps and heater were in the spa?
I'm sitting on the edge of my seat awaiting your reply...
Spahappy
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I have to go now, but will return,
I hope he means it...LOL
Spahappy :D
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I just read what you guys came up with while I was gone, and obviously you fellas are so far away from facing some facts, and talk about tip toeing around questions, You haven't even answered simple questions. Then you spill this slop onto the screen like you really showed Arctic Again. I understand though, I would hate to have to live with the fear of facing a superiour product as well, I can't wait till you guys are forced to sell a knock off Arctic design because yours will be a thing of the past. Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!! Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
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I just read what you guys came up with while I was gone, and obviously you fellas are so far away from facing some facts, and talk about tip toeing around questions, You haven't even answered simple questions. Then you spill this slop onto the screen like you really showed Arctic Again. I understand though, I would hate to have to live with the fear of facing a superiour product as well, I can't wait till you guys are forced to sell a knock off Arctic design because yours will be a thing of the past. Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!! Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
It's you that refuses to answer questions. I asked you some straight forward simple questions and you continue to dance the dance.
Still waiting....
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I just read what you guys came up with while I was gone, and obviously you fellas are so far away from facing some facts, and talk about tip toeing around questions, You haven't even answered simple questions. Then you spill this slop onto the screen like you really showed Arctic Again. I understand though, I would hate to have to live with the fear of facing a superiour product as well, I can't wait till you guys are forced to sell a knock off Arctic design because yours will be a thing of the past. Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!! Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
Wouldn't that be a novel idea! Someone copying Arctic for a change instead of Arctic copying everyone else!
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Well how should we enjoy our last days at the top before we have to ask Arctic for a job.LOL
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The evolution of stabone:
3:09pm
I did not put this up to argue with you full foam guys, I respect your products.
3:31pm
I don't think I said an Arctic was better than anything
7:32pm
do any of your products have <desc. of Arctic spa here>... Don't think so!!!
11:20pm
Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!! Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
Wow... maybe it's the arctic DEALER, not the tub, that heats up the longer "it" is unplugged...
:o
-Ed
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The evolution of stabone:
3:09pm
I did not put this up to argue with you full foam guys, I respect your products.
3:31pm
I don't think I said an Arctic was better than anything
7:32pm
do any of your products have <desc. of Arctic spa here>... Don't think so!!!
11:20pm
Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!! Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
Wow... maybe it's the arctic DEALER, not the tub, that heats up the longer "it" is unplugged...
:o
-Ed
ROTFL
Spahappy :D
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I just read what you guys came up with while I was gone.
They didn't "come up with it" while you were gone. This common sense was around longer than the duration you were able to pull yourself from the keyboard.
Do your own research on Coleman and hydropool. Heck, use the search feature here.
Answer the more than 20 questions asked of you.
Each of your posts that ignore all questions are insulting to those who provided them to you and undermind your basic credibility.
-Ed
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Stabone your cutting into my tubbing time.
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I just read what you guys came up with while I was gone, and obviously you fellas are so far away from facing some facts, and talk about tip toeing around questions, You haven't even answered simple questions. Then you spill this slop onto the screen like you really showed Arctic Again. I understand though, I would hate to have to live with the fear of facing a superiour product as well, I can't wait till you guys are forced to sell a knock off Arctic design because yours will be a thing of the past. Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!! Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
This is what happens when you drink the kool-aide. ;D
Unfortunately, there are some great people that happen to own Arctic spas but for some reason, the salespeople from this company want to eliminate any remaining credibility they might have. I don’t intend to insult those good people and I hope this post is taken in the manner in which it is intended.
As mentioned earlier by Mendo, the spas are OK. Very overpriced but OK. The company feels the need to hire morons to promote them and the result is what you have just witnessed. Nothing more than smoke and mirrors with no foundation of reality or truth. The only sharp ones are the marketing people that come up with this stuff and make the less intellectual ones tout it on forums like this and in their showrooms.
Nice try bone but there are far too many knowledgeable people on these forums for random BS and marketing gimmicks. As long as Arctic continues hiring people such as yourself and the mindless marketing campaign aimed at the people who don't have the time to compare, we'll be seeing you apply for a warehouse position very soon with one of us. People such as you don't succeed in this industry and that is a fact you take to the bank and not feel guilty bout cashing! Do yourself the favor of reading the archives here and educating yourself on conduct and accountability. Until then, you’re a child throwing a tantrum and just looking for attention...sorry pal, you've come to the wrong place.
Steve
(Show your brother this post Mendo! He’d be proud! ;) )
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I just read what you guys came up with while I was gone, and obviously you fellas are so far away from facing some facts, and talk about tip toeing around questions, You haven't even answered simple questions.
Specify which ones and I'll answer them again. Heat the spa and unplug the heater? I answered it. Heat loss when the pumps are off? I answered it. Which system will make the pumps last longer? I answered it. Which is quieter? I answered it. Sealed bottom - somebody else got that one, but I'll add that HotSpring has a sealed bottom, but it can be opened and resealed if needed. As a result, I would put our bottom up against a pan any day. Then you spill this slop onto the screen like you really showed Arctic Again.
I find that with some folks it's real easy to know when thier argument runs out: they switch to insults or other base techniques. Are you able to stick with this or not? I understand though, I would hate to have to live with the fear of facing a superiour product as well,
I guess I can understand your fear - just not from personal experience. - or perhaps I can't wait till you guys are forced to sell a knock off Arctic design because yours will be a thing of the past. Enjoy your last days, on the top boys!!
Thanks for acknowledging that Arctic is not on top. Rare in this type of discussions for one to be so candid. I admire that. HotSpring has sold well over 600,000 tubs in 27 years. Tiger River is among the top ten sellers, and it's a secondary line with only four models in three colors. Care to give us some numbers for Arctic? Because you'll be lookin up soon, and maybe even asking for jobs.
Actually, I'm self-employed. Have been most of the time since I was about 15 years old. But thanks. I would love to know - upon what are you basing this prediction that some day Artic will advance to beat out all the many tub makers now standing between them and the top??
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This is what happens when you drink the kool-aide. ;D
Unfortunately, there are some great people that happen to own Arctic spas but for some reason, the salespeople from this company want to eliminate any remaining credibility they might have. I don’t intend to insult those good people and I hope this post is taken in the manner in which it is intended.
As mentioned earlier by Mendo, the spas are OK. Very overpriced but OK. The company feels the need to hire morons to promote them and the result is what you have just witnessed. Nothing more than smoke and mirrors with no foundation of reality or truth. The only sharp ones are the marketing people that come up with this stuff and make the less intellectual ones tout it on forums like this and in their showrooms.
Nice try bone but there are far too many knowledgeable people on these forums for random BS and marketing gimmicks. As long as Arctic continues hiring people such as yourself and the mindless marketing campaign aimed at the people who don't have the time to compare, we'll be seeing you apply for a warehouse position very soon with one of us. People such as you don't succeed in this industry and that is a fact you take to the bank and not feel guilty bout cashing! Do yourself the favor of reading the archives here and educating yourself on conduct and accountability. Until then, you’re a child throwing a tantrum and just looking for attention...sorry pal, you've come to the wrong place.
Steve
(Show your brother this post Mendo! He’d be proud! ;) )
Well put Steve!
Spahappy :D
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stabone
It seems that how this got started was when you mentioned that your Artic spa can run all day with the cover off most of the time lose 6 degrees and than pick those 6 degrees back up by running with the cover on all night I think it would be very fair to assume somewhere close to 12 hours....I alluded to before what is the big deal.....I am sure that most any decent made thermal type spa would do exactly the same thing... as Chas pointed out what is the point....what is the real usable benefit of that to someone....how many people are unplugging their heaters.....does it in any genuine way really matter...A FF would not have the same heat loss when the whole spa is shut down....now there is a real benefit in that but only in extreme cases....but what is the point you are trying to make....
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor, and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
Yes my insulation skeem has temperature creep also. About 3-4 degrees during 10-30 degree days. Problem is I only need 4 hours of filtration and it takes 6 to get this creep with 4 hours I get 1-3 degrees. but what about the 16 hours a day the motor isn't running?
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I understand though, I would hate to have to live with the fear of facing a superiour product as well,
Hmmm... the local dealer that used to sell Arctic now sells Jaccuzi Premium, why, they had a hard time competing with: Beachcomber, Hydropool, Hot springs, Sundance, Coleman, and all the other brand names sold here. Not because Arctic is not good, but, the sales pitch was so far out that most consumers here seen right through the fluf.
I would love to see them back in town, perminantly, not just a tent sale for a weekend. ;D
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I am still waiting on my education on Artic Spas. Please teach me on the benefits and superiority of this brand because I don’t see that you have answered many of the questions asked of you.
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Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor, and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to this point I did not see anyone say that. People hear "heat the tub to 104 degrees with no heater" and walk out of the arctic store thinking they dont need a heater. That is the "bunk" that was being referred to.
I agree with another poster here in this thread. The tubs seem good. I have not heard of numerous complaints about the product. Its the pitch everyone objects to!
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Also I will have to look into hydro-pool I am not familiar with that product, I am sure there will be alot of similar design to an Arctic coming out, or already out there.
WHAT! Do you think Arctic invented thermal lock or something? Coleman did it for ten years before Arctic made one tub. I am not sure, but I doubt Coleman was the first either.
So isn't Arctic the copy-cat?
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Get your last digs in now I will probably lock this thread by the end of the day. Any individual issues can be discussed in new threads. While quick to defend the original poster and wanting to welcome an expert on a spa brand I know nothing about, it seems that the only purpose of this thread is to be adversarial. It may even have become a hit and run thing.
As moderator, I welcome info and news about lots of brands I have never owned and I'm sure soon to be owners will appreciate reading these threads and taking them on face value. However, this one seems to be going no where.
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agreed altough i wish he would return to answer the questions posed. sorry for the lack of puctuation, hard to type with a baby in hand
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. sorry for the lack of puctuation, hard to type with a baby in hand
Or with 2345s=tg a 14 pound cat 245y8hyhfhahe walking across the efh3-93h- keyboard.
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Get your last digs in now I will probably lock this thread by the end of the day. Any individual issues can be discussed in new threads. While quick to defend the original poster and wanting to welcome an expert on a spa brand I know nothing about, it seems that the only purpose of this thread is to be adversarial. It may even have become a hit and run thing.
As moderator, I welcome info and news about lots of brands I have never owned and I'm sure soon to be owners will appreciate reading these threads and taking them on face value. However, this one seems to be going no where.
That's fine however make sure that Stabone has an opportunity to answer some of the questions if he PM's you and is nice about it. :D
Most of us really do want answers as to what how and why Arctic does what they do....
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Well, as a final post from me on this, let me say this:
The 'controversy' over FF vs. TP is overblown. Take a close look - the biggest players have moved away from TP and toward FF. But if you take any well-designed tub - FF or TP and put it in your backyard, it will heat and stay hot. And most end up costing about the same to run. I'm not speaking about the various poorly insulated tubs commonly sold through mass merchants or online. Some of those have no real insulation, and no real design for heat retention. Those babies can eat you out of house and home on the power bill.
Some of the TP spas - not all - will require a little changing of the filtering time as the season changes, but that becomes a part of the normal life with that spa as much as any other care and maintenance item. Some will get hotter as you run the jets - too hot in some cases - so you simply adjust the time you run jets, run the blower, or whatever.
My FF spa requires that I open the lid every day during a heat spell, or engage the 'summer timer.' It's not onerous, it's not a 'design flaw,' it's just part of living with a spa which keeps the heat in as well as mine does.
However, in response to 'bone' and his method - I see trouble ahead for any company who tries to make claims which cannot be substantiated.
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I think he just "Had a Bone to Pick" with all of us for beating up on his brand... ;D (sorry I couldn't resist)
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Well, as a final post from me on this, let me say this:
The 'controversy' over FF vs. TP is overblown. Take a close look - the biggest players have moved away from TP and toward FF. .
In the Forestry industry, I think this is called, setting a backfire to put out the original fire. It doesn't always work however ;)
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I do not see where anyone really beat up anyone here...nor was anyone taking personal shots at anyone...more than anything real questions were asked that we not addressed but plenty of bold statements were made....
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I do not see where anyone really beat up anyone here...nor was anyone taking personal shots at anyone...more than anything real questions were asked that we not addressed but plenty of bold statements were made....
Probably correct, that is why I said the end of the day, all questions will probably be posted by then. I just don't see them getting answered. The thread will not be deleted and will probably remain forever
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I do have some final comments:
I'm amazed at the lack of common sense used in most of the rebuttals by arctic people. If they want to be more recognized in the industry then have a more productive presentation then just marketing.
I also agree that the product probably has it’s merits however, I find myself picking it apart simply because of their hostile and borderline unethical style of selling.
I have said many times that spending money on things like aluminum cabinets while the filtration is still substandard is crazy. Redesigning your whole spa cabinet should have meant taking rails off that collect debris and bacteria in addition to allowing moisture into the foam.
I had a debate earlier in the month with JP Keirstead the VP of marketing for Arctic, a short time latter stabone pops up. I had a similar situation on spasearch last year and the board was suddenly flooded with arctic salespeople defending their brand. I believe you will see them attempt something similar here..…
Here is my comments that set JP off
My biggest issue with the way that Arctic insulates is that they spray all of they foam on the inside wall of the cabinet. By not filling the void they allow the weight of the foam to pull against the cabinet and then encourage more weight from water by adding several places on the cabinet to bring in moisture(i.e. rails top/bottom and door panels that bolt against rather than fit in the cabinet wall). In addition, by doing it this way they don’t provide any sound deadening nor support for the hoses and jets. They tout the fact that they are the only manufacture to use “Reflex Torsion hose” and are proud of that. I have news for you, with around 200 manufactures someone else would have picked it up if it was that good, it was available to all of us. The sheer nature of that type plumbing makes it harder to work with, glue and more in need of support, it’s bigger and heavier than standard PVC…
Let’s look at the heating system; first off, most of their marketing and sales pitch states that they can heat the spa without a heating element yet they put an expensive proprietary element in anyway, is this just to add cost? Many, many manufactures have tried to coat the element with Teflon and titanium but the failure rate made them quit. An example of that type of coating would be a Teflon coated skillet that you replace every year, the coating will and does come off!
Now, how about the “forever floor”? My first comment to that is I think it was absolutely unethical to sell it to the consumer the way they did when it came out. Did you get the “Ants in the cabinet pitch”? Over half of the dealers in the US were using that pitch which leads me to believe that it came from a factory level but regardless, if you understand the properties of fiberglass you would understand why putting a fiberglass base on the ground is a bad idea, have you ever heard of a substance called Cobalt?
All in all Arctic might have their place however it’s my opinion that everything on their spa is much more marketing oriented then engineering oriented and their sales pitch borderlines unethical.
You can see the whole thing by going to
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1100481772;start=30
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Ah, now you're just showin' off... ;)
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Ah, now you're just showin' off... ;)
Sorry, the thought of this topic being locked and not having the ability to get the last word (or one of the last words) was overwhelming! ;D
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Don't tell Bill, but you can always start a new topic. ... ;)
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I also agree that the product probably has it’s merits however, I find myself picking it apart simply because of their hostile and borderline unethical style of selling.
Good thing Artic is in the title or this message, that paragraph could apply to another spa I have never personally seen 8)
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here's an idea...
save a link to this thread and the many others like this ::) and the next time J or one of his clones come here, just send him back to the same threads. discussion would be over. ;D
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Don't tell Bill, but you can always start a new topic. ... ;)
I think we need to, after all how often do we get to see a Steve tyraid these days? (don't ya just love those! ;D)
If it drags him out of the Hydropool shadows to enlighten some poor unsuspecting fool with his unique brand of knowledge mixed with sarcasm then I'm all for it!
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Don't tell Bill, but you can always start a new topic. ... ;)
Any individual issues can be discussed in new threads. :P .
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Ya SEE ?!! That's why I said NOT to tell Bill - he'll try to claim credit for the idea.
;)
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wow, I'm still amazed that there's another 14LB kitty running around in the world, and I thought mine was the only one.......and he's "slimmed" down to about 14 LBS too!!! just wish his attitude had slimmed down with the pounds...........
Like stuart said before, NONE of us ATTACKED arctic's product or EVER said it was a BAD SPA, we all have issues with the sales and marketing techniques that come from their corporate headquarters. Currently there are no arctic dealers near our store or in any of the surrounding markets to my knowledge, so i haven't seen one in person, or come up against them. Looking at their website, the spas look OK and seem on par with most of the mid level spas in the marketplace.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
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I'd like to apologize to each and every poster in this thread for planting stab one (or is it sta bone?) in order to take the heat off of Master Spas........did it work?
;D ;D ;D
(Yes, I know I still corner the "flimsy panel" market! :D)
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I hope everyone understands my opinion here. I just thought the thread was about to switch into Beat a dead horse mode since I thought the original poster was never coming back. I have no problem with any individual post.
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Really with 20 of you all coming at once , How can I answer that many questions, so I will try to get to some of the more pointed questions. If you guys could wait long enough before all jumping in, First of all any thermal panel tub that has insulation on the shell of it's tub will have very little heat transfer from air space to the water, By using a fiberglass shell with NO insulation on it you don't block the heat from the water away from the air space, nor the heat from the pumps from the water. The last coleman I saw had insulation on the shell, How can you argue that insulation will allow the same amount of heat transfer as fiberglass!!! To that point the more heat from the pumps that can be used to help maintain water temperature with out the heater having to turn on is more efficient!! Thermal Panel Spas with insulation on the shells only use a warm air space as insulation, that is why they are not as efficient as FF, but the benefit is the serviceabilty, and that the equipment is in a insulated air space in cold temps. This makes ours more effecient, we have you in our energy test, but you don't have us in yours???
On to some materials, the thought of even comparing the jacuzzi floor to a forever floor as far as strength and stabilty goes is a joke, I sold Jacuzzi and you can stick a screw drive through that thin plastic floor and the way it is sealed does not compare, although it is one of the better floors on the market, and jacuzzi has some of the best jets out there as well, and comfortable siting tubs.
If you are selling alunium furniture that is getting surface scratching you should look into some better manufacures that bake the external coating, I have had the same problems with the furniture in the past, like someone said ours has not been out long enough and time will tell, but do you still sell aluminum furniture? And how do you sell it against much cheaper plastic or wood furniture?
For the genious that was talking about barbed fittings and stainless clamps, I thought that went without saying on pipe sizes without enough surface area, on manifolds, and jets. And these high tech tools you need to get the pipe off the barbed fittings, are truly that!!(Heat Gun & Snips) WOW!!!
On to filtering, Is a continious running circ pump and a huge filter or numerous filters all that advanced. Do you know why all circ pump filtered tubs have over sized filters, all it is for is to prolong the time between filters having to be cleaned, as you know a circ pump is caring a heavy load, and working against gravity located beneth the water, larger filters take longer for depree to slow down water flow so to put less strain on the pump, so just because you have filter sizes rated for 10,000 gallons of water does not make the filtering better, nor does running a circ pump all the time give you any more turn over rate, We have a 900 sp ft filter that filters down to 1 micron, while you are still using paper filters. To me both methods are adaquate, and you talk about a bigger is better sales pitch, well thats yours!! I know if I don't write I will hear it so just to let you guys know a circ pump running all the time is not the same as continious filtering, all the water is not running through the filter all the time, depending on volume there could be 6 to 8 hours of turn over time. It is a great concept but no tub has true no by pass filtering with all the pumps on high speed, so if you believe that, well its BUNK!!! I have to run friends, will talk soon!!
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I don't see any way that the water can by-pass the filters on my HS Envoy! Do you know of a secret by-pass?
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Ok, let it continue.
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Thanks wmccall for keeping this open.
Stabone could you please answer my questions on an outside version of you unplugged heater test.
I'm conducting some product research of my own with my Coleman spa.
I'll look forward to your answers.
Spahappy :D
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As someone who comes from many years with one manufacturer and then changed, I can tell you that I understand how someone can be totally brainwashed into thinking that there's only one way to do it. THERE'S NOT!
I'm not saying that I now think Beachcomber is a weak product but I can tell you that it took a while to de-program from the marketing hoopla. One day stabone will do the same, but until then, he will continue this transfer of misinformation until he takes the time to really open his eyes and explore on his own. We are often robots that are willing to pass on any information from head office and put whatever spin we feel makes sense to us. The concern is that sometimes the information is so misleading that other industry professionals get their panties in a bunch and will try to expose this. Consider my panties bunched! ;D
The problem here is that we are dealing with a company that is willing to generate an abundance of lies and half-truths and draw the focus away from their poor shell designs, filtration and overall poor engineering to make a point that translates into an average tub that costs similar to most other brands to operate. When you consider how uncomfortable and expensive these spas are and the likes of the people selling them, it still translates into poor value at the end of the day regardless of the marketing machine behind it.
Since I doubt we'll ever see real answers to any of our previous questions, let me ask this;
Please insert your average operating costs based on a family of 4 using the these spas 5 times a week at 32F. Let's suggest that each spa is used for a total of 1 hour per day and during this time, 2-4HP pumps are running for 30 minutes of that time.
Arctic average cost per month - $
Beachcomber average cost per month - $
Marquis average cost per month - $
Hot Springs average cost per month - $
Coleman average cost per month - $
Sundance average cost per month - $
Jacuzzi average cost per month - $
Hydropool average cost per month - $
What I don't want is a cut & paste of your "independent study". I want to know what YOU truly believe these spas operate at given the above equation. I suggest you do some research on the spas you're not familiar with to gather your well thought out response. I'm assuming you know ALL of them though as you have claimed superiority with your product. I'm guessing you can't do that until you've examined them all in a detailed fashion.
I will unbunch myself while waiting patiently for your response... ;)
Steve
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I have a question why does it matter whether your spa loses 6 degrees indoors or 6 degrees out doors...meaning......I lost 7 degrees indoors over 4 days and just say another spa lost 10 would it not transfer to the same kind of a loss outdoors as well....to say any spa in doors will hold temp with out power is simply not true.....and if you carry the loss to outside conditions the difference would only increase in the harsher environment but the spa that held better indoors is not going to suddenly lose heat faster outside.....again the difference will only increase and become more dramatic as the conditions change....
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I think we need to, after all how often do we get to see a Steve tyraid these days? (don't ya just love those! ;D)
If it drags him out of the Hydropool shadows to enlighten some poor unsuspecting fool with his unique brand of knowledge mixed with sarcasm then I'm all for it!
A "Steve tyraid"? ;D Geez, we have a name for them now! My wife calls them something totally different but yours is put in a way that can be posted here at least! ;)
Steve
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Please insert your average operating costs based on a family of 4 using the these spas 5 times a week at 32F. Let's suggest that each spa is used for a total of 1 hour per day and during this time, 2-4HP pumps are running for 30 minutes of that time.
Steve,
It would be tough for me to give an accurate read on that temp but lets say at this time of the year here where I live and tub ( so cal) using the tub at night when it has been in the upper 30's to low 40's....It would run me about 25 to 28...29 dollars a month
To run My Marquis Euphoria spa....
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It's not even estimated cost per month in dollars, but estimated power consumption per month in KWH.
We pay about $.07 per KWH for our power. Some areas of the country may pay double that. But if our spas consume the same power, they are equally efficient or close enough for me. But one costs double to operate than the other, due to no fault of the spa.
Brewman
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Sorry guys... that question was directed at stabone and you're right Brewman, KWH costs will make an impact on that question. To simplify it, let's base it on $0.07 per KWH.
My goal here is to find out in stabones mind anyway, what the serious impact is financially to own an Arctic spa over the others I mentioned. Sorry for not making that clear... ::)
Steve
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spahappy that would be great but what does that prove if I do mine in warmer weather, on a less windy day than yours, I really didn't want this topic to turn out this way and I am so played out by all our sales pitch, stuff, the point is not which tubs run for a dollar or two more or less a month, my point for this was that most thermal panel tubs are not using the same insulation style as Arctic, even thermo spa uses thermo bond which has an insulating factor in their shell, and tubs that use insulation on there shells are not recovering the heat off the pumps at the scale that Arctics do. Whether or not it is in a showroom or 20below. We can go round and round on these points, forever, on filtering, pumps, plumbing, boards, etc. There is no point I can make, to change your minds or vis versa, maybe we should all really push for our manufactures to get together and conduct a test that will be recognized by all participants, as an accurate unbiased test.
From what I have seen on the market, I sell a tub with a thicker, stronger shell, cabinet, floor, cover, than what I sell against. There are tons of features, jets, lighting, even shell designs that I would love to see added to are line up. I believe in my product and I am happy to see you fellas feel the same about yours, we all work in a great industry, and it benefits us all to embrace the advancements each of our manufactures makes to strenghten the industry as a whole, we all know from experience that the shmucks will weed themselves out, I do not want to come off as what you feel a typical Arctic guy is, I really do love this business and have meet so many great people in it, and I'm sure you guys fall into that same class. Good luck to all of you, and happy Holidays. Better go plug my heater back in it's getting cold in the showroom !!!!!
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On to filtering, Is a continious running circ pump and a huge filter or numerous filters all that advanced. Do you know why all circ pump filtered tubs have over sized filters, all it is for is to prolong the time between filters having to be cleaned,
Duh!! as you know a circ pump is caring a heavy load,
No, they are not. They move water through a system which was and is designed to do exactly what it is doing. They draw about 85watts. and working against gravity located beneth the water,
Weeeell, where I live gravity makes things go down. That means that the circ pump, located below the waterline would have gravity workin in it's favor. Is it not so where you live?? larger filters take longer for depree to slow down water flow so to put less strain on the pump, so just because you have filter sizes rated for 10,000 gallons of water does not make the filtering better,
It certainly does, and it also means the owner spends less time cleaning filters. I think this is a good thing - do you advocate a smaller filter so your customres have to work harder? nor does running a circ pump all the time give you any more turn over rate,
Um, I may be missing something here, but are you saying that having a pump run all the time moves less water than if we shut it off for part of the time? I don't get it. We have a 900 sp ft filter that filters down to 1 micron, while you are still using paper filters.
Wow !! 900 square feet !! That's an amazing claim. I read it on the web site. But how do they back that up? A filter which is the 'equivelant of a 900 Sq ft pleated filter' would be huge. Your disposable filter is about the same size as a standard filter. But it has no pleats at all. To the untrained eye I would say that means it has LESS surface area than a large pleated filter. OK - so it may have depth. But if you have a filter that is filtering down to 1 micron, it is going to be very susceptible to clogging with oils. What does one cost, and how often is it going to need to be replaced. Wait, I'm not sure I want to hear that answer from you, 'bone.' Any Arctic owners out there who could help here? It is a great concept but no tub has true no by pass filtering with all the pumps on high speed, so if you believe that, well its BUNK!!!
except, of course, oh HotSpring products. If you can find a bypass, I'll eat it. Or have one of my faithful employees eat it...I have to run friends, will talk soon!!
Me too - but I'll try to get back soon.
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It is a great concept but no tub has true no by pass filtering with all the pumps on high speed, so if you believe that, well its BUNK!!!
It amazes me that you speak with such authority and yet with so much ignorance! I can name 2 off the top of my head, HotSpring and Marquis. Both where "closed loop" systems without a bypass even plumed in last time I looked!
Don't try and be an expert on brands you obviously know nothing about. Try and do some research and shopping before making such statements.
I did not post anything negative on Arctic until I went through the complete sales pitch, researched the forums, had a salesman pull the panels to look inside, sat in one and even read the owners manual in addition to doing a complete background history on the company including Darcy Amendt. So as you lamely post untrue statements understand that there are those of us that try to back up what we say….
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Ok, sorry, but I have to agree with tony and chas! No bypass in my Vanguard!
I think I'll go look! Be back in a while!!! ::)
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I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.
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I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.
Ok, I am no expert, and I hate these threads, but I have to ask you to explain that statement. Yes the water is being pushed around the filters and then down (I fill the tub through the circ pump filter pipe) through the filter pipes into the heater (please forgive me, this is a basic explanation, don't slam me for being just a user, not a dealer) and then back into the tub through the drain in the bottom.
So, where is the unfiltered water going? The weir door keeps the water from circulation back into the tub, other than the filter pipe.
What am I missing?
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Chas I think you forgeting that the pump has to return the water, so unless your pump has no return side hooked up, it has to pump it back up, I'm not sure, but that's what happens where I live
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First of all any thermal panel tub that has insulation on the shell of it's tub will have very little heat transfer from air space to the water, By using a fiberglass shell with NO insulation on it you don't block the heat from the water away from the air space, nor the heat from the pumps from the water. The last coleman I saw had insulation on the shell, How can you argue that insulation will allow the same amount of heat transfer as fiberglass!!!
OK one at a time. If it works (the heat transfer thing) then what happens when the pumps aren't running, you know the other 16 hours of every single day? Is the insulation suffiecient to keep out the cold? Or would more insulation be better?
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After all, run time is only 1/3rd of the tubs life. Lets talk about the other 2/3rds or majority of it's life. Or are we supposed to filter more than we need in order to create insulation R-Factor? Please don't say yes.
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I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.
Huh? Pushed around the filters to where? I'm not a Spa dealer either only an engineer, so I guess I need a better explaination to understand.
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You guys go on about how much heat your covers that are usually 3 to 2 inch holds in, which in any insulated structure is (supossed) to be the most important, so why is it so crazy to believe that 4 to 5 inch of insulation all around the tub will not hold heat, in a sealed air space, and also our cabinets are sealed way better than covers
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stabone.....you are great at injecting knew claims and raising more questions but very poor at answering questions already posed....
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This guy truely has no concept of fluid mechanics.
I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.
It seems that he is somehow saying that the water that has to be drawn into the filters to get to the pump suction somehow gets pushed around them at low flow? ???
Chas I think you forgeting that the pump has to return the water, so unless your pump has no return side hooked up, it has to pump it back up, I'm not sure, but that's what happens where I live
This is really good. If the water level is above the return (I assume the return on a HS spa is below the water level ;D) then there is a net positive head on the pump suction. What that means is that the pump is not pushing water against gravity.
Whatever.
oh BTW, txwille = mechanical engineer
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Let me put it in different terms, at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two, so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,
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Did you start drinking today at lunch or before?
Let me put it in different terms, at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two, so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,
This car wash analogy is just plain stoopid. Go back and read it again. SLOWLY, and as many times as you have to.
Filter velocity and filter efficiency have NOTHING to do with each other. But, and this is just my guess/opinion, the current pattern produced by a jet pump on low during a filter cycle will improve the overall filtering capability of the system vs. a circ. pump that probably does not flow enough to create any type circulation pattern in the tub.
I'm out. Not gonna waste any more time on this.
txwillie
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I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about, and I have a very strong feeling that you don't either.
HotSpring has no bypass filtration. Here's a picture:
(http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/gifs/pumps_filters.gif)
Now, if you are saying that our system doesn't work as designed, then I'm afraid you're going to have to back that up with something other than what I have seen you post so far.
It works, and works well. The new HP tubs have the Tri-X filtration system which has up to 300 square feet of filtering area. They need that much since they have the largest pumps ever put in a HotSpring tub, and since they have NO BYPASS.
(Do you think I'm gettin' through here??) ::) ::) ::)
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Let me put it in different terms, at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two, so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,
Yeah, but which one would have more fun?? I love watching those car wash guys jumpin' out of the way as I scream through. Now - what was the point? Are you trying to slam HotSpring's filtering system here?
This is just a guess, based on what you have written here, but I think somebody has told you that our flow rate is too high to do a good job. You need to get your money back from whoever that was - they didn't do a good job of educating you.
HotSpring has a great filtering system. It works, and works well. We also have great jets, a cool lighting system and some sharp water features, an awesome insulation scheme which ends up costing about $10 to $20 per month to keep hot and enjoy it around here (power costs around a quarter per killiwatt hour here) and an excellant warranty. We have informed salespeople who generally do not try to sell by downplaying or demeaning the other tubs out there.
You ought to give it a try. I can promise you one thing with just about absolute certainty: you are not going to sell anyone on Arctic this way. Sorry. At least, not here. ;)
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You guys go on about how much heat your covers that are usually 3 to 2 inch holds in, which in any insulated structure is (supossed) to be the most important, so why is it so crazy to believe that 4 to 5 inch of insulation all around the tub will not hold heat, in a sealed air space
Well, if the airspace is sealed, then your pumps are going to burn up. If you have a blower, I assume it will draw from that air space, so I guess we know why you are offering metal cabinets: so the blower can't suck the sides in when it comes on.
You have a common misconception: the cover is not the most important. I'm assuming you think that heat goes up. It doesn't. Yes, hot AIR will rise if free to do so - such as in an large open chamber inside of a TP spa. In fact, it will get some air currents going which tends to cool the system quite well. But back to the 'heat rises' thing: heat will go in any direction from hot to cold. Any direction. So the cover is important, but the entire insulation scheme is important. The top, sides and bottom. I have sold extra-heavy covers (Robert's sell a 6 to 4 incher) and had people put them on uninsulated tubs. They didn't get the expected results. Physical laws are just that: laws.
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(http://img78.exs.cx/img78/732/constantclean7af.png)
Can you see a "bypass" here?
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noooooooope, nooooooooooo bypass there. The car wash analogy was really off base. A low amp circulation pump circulates the water slowly to allow the filter cartridge media to pick up very fine particles. Now when the jet pumps are engaged this allows for the filtering of LARGE particles, since a circ pump usually doesn't cause enough turbulance to pick up large particles, and they therefore sink to the bottom. This is why many manufacturers who have circ pumps also utilize 2 "power" filtration cycles a day in addition to the 24 hr circ pump. Just for added piece of mind. Does Hot springs and Marquis' no bypass filtration effectively keep your spas water crystal clear??? YES!!! Does the above mentioned system that D-1 and Caldera incorporate keep their spas water crystal clear??? YES!!!!
NOW, please explain how arctic's filtration works. So we can more accurately compare it to the fuiltration systems on a hot spring, Caldera, marquis, and D-1 Spa.
I dunno............sounds like a lot of smoke & mirrors to me, i guess I'm just used to the fact based, well thought out answers that Steve, Stuart, Chas, mendo, Dr. Spa, & HTM give on a regular basis.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & caldera dealer
Ok, time for college bball. GO CUSE!!!
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I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.
That doesn't even make sense. Was the double negative on purpose? What does:
play out of it in it's form now is better than not to
mean?
-Ed
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Let me put it in different terms, at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two, so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,
Filter velocity isn't a variable in filtering. Let's do some more "proof by analogy"...
Take a keyhole and gently push a sofa against it. Notice how it does not go through the keyhole.
Now, move the sofa back and, with a running start, push the sofa into the keyhole are hard and as quickly as possible.
Note that the sofa has, indeed, still not gone through the keyhole.
Unless you imply that the water is being shot through the filter with enough force to damage the filter (which is a completely different claim).
Is that what you are saying?
-Ed
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If you are considering that water is the same density as a couch that would be great,
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Ahhhhhh, the 'ol "sofa through the keyhole" analogy! ;D
Steve
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and also if you where to push a couch with enough velocity and force parts of the couch would enter the key hole, and the rest would be croumbled on the outside of it, so in this case unfiltered, I am not knocking the hp filtering system, it is one of the best in the industry, like I said, it is better not to by pass the filter at any water velocity, any amount of filtration is better than none!!! I hear alot about being brain washed by manufacture mumbo jumbo, I think some of you are victoms of the same.
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If you are considering that water is the same density as a couch that would be great,
wow. That makes it all clear. Now I get it.
So - if I had a couch that was the same density of water, it would go through the car wash at 60, but come out clean unless it bypassed the filter alltogether, or got 'keyed?'
???
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wow. That makes it all clear. Now I get it.
So - if I had a couch that was the same density of water, it would go through the car wash at 60, but come out clean unless it bypassed the filter alltogether, or got 'keyed?'
???
Don't worry though, you would be safely standing on an Arctic spa cover with the other twenty customers at the car wash watching!
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How come I need to educate myself about you product but you guys seem to know nothing about arctic, we have a disposable filter that filters to 1 micron and is equivalent to 900 sq ft . Yes no more cleaning of the filter just take it out every 5 months and put a new one in for only 39$ canadian.
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Glad you brought that up.
Let's see...I can purchase a filter for the same money and have it last 2 years. These "disposable" filters are lower quality and appeal to those people with more money than time. Yep, I guess if you don't have 20 minutes a month to put aside and more money than God, those make great sense. ::) Do I understand that you recommend keeping them in the spa for 5 months? ??? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :P
I find it interesting that you can't answer one of my questions but your topic was AN EDUCATION ON ARCTIC SPAS? I think the only thing you've shown is that Arctic deserves you. I know you won't take that in the manner in which it was written but I'm OK with that. ;D
Love and Good Cheer....
Steve ;)
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How come I need to educate myself about you product but you guys seem to know nothing about arctic, we have a disposable filter that filters to 1 micron and is equivalent to 900 sq ft . Yes no more cleaning of the filter just take it out every 5 months and put a new one in for only 39$ Canadian.
Good start. You just posted your first post which simply stated a feature that 'your' spas offer. Ok, there may have been a personal stab at the top, but you're moving in the right general direction. Keep it up.
Now - how's the track record on that filter? Is it similar to the Sundance Micro Filter? Do oils plug it up easily? What if I don't want to spend $40CAN every five months, can I swap to a conventional filter? Does it work?
One last question: knowing that Sundance has a big budget for engineering - and that they are years ahead of you on this micro-filter idea - can you explain what you know that they don't? What I mean is: why do NO OTHER makers, even makers with experience with this type of filter, use it the way you do?
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How come I need to educate myself about you product but you guys seem to know nothing about arctic, we have a disposable filter that filters to 1 micron and is equivalent to 900 sq ft . Yes no more cleaning of the filter just take it out every 5 months and put a new one in for only 39$ canadian.
that is some very "creative math....sounds like a man tying to tell the woman hes with that each inch really makes three....like when there measuring...uhhh.....measuring string for kite or something... ;)
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it's called MAN MATH Mendo! We use it with fishing stories too! ;)
Steve
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lol.....well I guess the size of the fish depends on the size of the worm....ok...ok.....that was way off topic.... back to matters at hand help me to really understand how one filter can somehow equal 900 square feet....900 sq ft is a 30 by 30 room......or bigger than a 2 car garage....this is just really hard for be to believe....
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Arctic Math my friend...Arctic Math. It's something totally different. Take a standard comment, exagerate it, multiply by 7, add 50 and subtract 3. Then pay off an independant testing company to say it's all true. ;D
Once you have established this skill, you are ready to open your own Arctic dealership. Congratulations! :P
Steve
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I am one the the proud members of the arctic family
so i don't know how you all got led down the wrong
path but bring it on.
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Arctic Math my friend...Arctic Math. It's something totally different. Take a standard comment, exagerate it, multiply by 7, add 50 and subtract 3. Then pay off an independant testing company to say it's all true. ;D
Once you have established this skill, you are ready to open your own Arctic dealership. Congratulations! :P
Steve
Not quite, first you need to buy a competitors old outdated spa from the late 70's early 80's (you know before Arctic was around), cut it in pieces, drag it behind your truck through a field, shovel an ant hill into it and sell the merits of your "forever floor" to an uninformed public that believes you because you've set yourself up as the only expert in the industry!
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Welcome new poster ::)
Careful G - these guys are rough on people who don't post until a contoversial moment.....
What model do you have, how long have you had it, and are you enjoying it?
What one feature are you glad it has, and what one feature do you wish it had?
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OOO Hell YEA
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oh god, did somebody else drink the Kool-aid too?????
Oh YAY more marketing blitz. Here's an idea. Instead of regurgitating the arctic marketing spiel to us AGAIN, why don't you *Family members* take some time to actually compare your product to the other spas on the market and feature for feature tell us how and why yours is different and or better?????
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Ahhh yeh...forgot that part Stuart...thanks.
gwhite says "bring it on"? ??? I thought that's exactly what we've been doing?
Once again G, we aren't knocking the spa itself. They're OK. It's all the BS marketing that goes along with it.
Enjoy the Christmas party on your cover! ;)
Steve
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OOO Hell YEA
Well....I guess that answers all of those unanswered questions.....
heres another...that your one filter somehow equals 900 sq ft...an 8 by 8 spa is 64 sq foot.....that means the filter you use would be the equivalent of more than 13 spas....this is just really really hard to believe....
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whatquestion do you want answered
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you guys seem to be so smart, so what does it mean when a filter is 50sqft
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you guys seem to be so smart,
Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if you would ever post a civil word.
so what does it mean when a filter is 50sqft
Well, if you are talking about a pleated cartridge type of filter, it means that if it's a foot tall, you could stretch it out and it would be 50 feet long. That's the 'surface area' we are talking about.
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the pleats in the filters if layed out would be 50 sq foot....to be 900 hundred sq ft you would need a 4 garage and it would still not have enough room....or as chas mentioned you would if it were one foot you would need 3 American football fields to lay out the filter you claim to use....it just seems to be not very credtiable.....but again you simply make statments and provide no answers....
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I know, I know...
Let's see; 50 sq ft. Applying the Arctic math...
multiply by 7, add 50 and subtract 3.
50X7= 350
plus 50 = 400
minus 3 = 397
That would mean a 50 sq ft Arctic filter is actually 397 sq ft. Wada I win? ??? ;D
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What the hell does it matter what I think a tubs operating costs are, Steve I think you are so full of shit and I haven't heard anyone say anything about us pushing for our manufactures to get a test together that we can all agree on, you guys would rather sit here and keep believing that nothing can be improved and all your arguements revolve around the way things have always been done and if the big guys haven't done it well it's no good, well thinking like that gets you left behind,
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What the hell does it matter what I think a tubs operating costs are, Steve I think you are so full of shit and I haven't heard anyone say anything about us pushing for our manufactures to get a test together that we can all agree on, you guys ,
Actually if you did some researching of old threads here that has been brought up several times...not about Steve...but about the tests....as it stands most agree that all of the better made spas will be close in energy use....
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OK, make us smart like you then.
How do you support the claim - on the Arctic website - that your $40 single-use filter can filter down to one micron and yet be the equivelant of a 900 square foot filter?
Saying it's so doesn't quite cut it - can you please add some info here? Tell us how this can be equal to three sets of filters in a HotSpring Vista (total is 300 feet per Vista) ??
And what's the track record for this filter?
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I am one the the proud members of the arctic family
so i don't know how you all got led down the wrong
path but bring it on.
G - I put you on my "ignore" list, so if you are waiting for a response from the PMs you have sent me, or if you are sending more, they're not gettin' through.
Why not tell us about your spa - right here on the board?
Please? 8)
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thats the smartest thing you have said chas, besides the stuff about the gravity on circ pumps,
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It at least sounded smart
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The first part of the question on our filter, no I haven't unroled the whole thing, and measured, however the filtering quality is unbelievable, and our customers that have gone from paper to the disposable have noticed a difference. A draw back is that with well water they tend to not last as long off the first filling
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thats the smarts thing you have said chas, besides the stuff about the gravity on circ pumps,
That is nice to compliment Chas "the most humble poster here"....but you still have not answered any questions and it appears that your buddy can not answer any as well...no shame in that but don't you think that now before you go off and make such statements that you need to have a better understanding how and why the things you say work....as it stands you come across as someone who is just reading from a training manual that teaches you to make statements but does not give you an understanding of how and why it works.....
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How can you talk about not answering questions, I've asked you guys if coleman and hydro thing use insulation on there shell, it is a yes or no question, I would have to write a novel to answer some of your questions, and I had so many at one time, and I type slow
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Hey guys my battery is getting low, I really mean this, it is awesome having some heated discussion with you guys, even if you guys hate me, I have learned alot, and think alot of you brought up some good points, I look forward to chating again soon, GOOD NIGHT NOW
Even you Steve
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Well I had dart leage tonight so I missed most of the fun here...
Stabone you started this educational post about Arctic with a climate controlled showroom example of how efficient your spas are.
I can talk the talk and walk the walk all day long on the capabilities of thermal pane technology because I've sold Colemans for 10 years.
I'm amazed at the lack of respect you have for a brand like Coleman. Thay were engineering the same type of insulation you base so much of your sales hype on years before the word arctic meant anything more than frozen tundra.
I'm sure you belive in your product as do the rest of us. Thats why this thread is as long as it is...I'm all for putting mistruths aside as I'm sure you are...
Lets bring an Arctic spa into my backyard and hook it up next to my Coleman spa. Same weather conditions, same gallon capacity, same pump/heater size. We could run them side by side for the month of Jan. We could have full faom dealers be the judges since they have nothing to gain by the results of out study, and would be completely unbiased...
Of course Arctic has already conducted a similar study under the cover of darkness, in the back of a refridgerated semi trailor with two engineers from Arctic and a handfull of sales reps from Arctic who will verify the results.
How far north are you? Lets do a comparison outside in my backyard during the monyh of Jan and.... {Lets get this thing started}, to quote Black Eyed Peas
Spahappy
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Ya know, upon seeing the subject of this topic I got a little excited.. after reading so much negative banter about Arctic I thought I would finally get to learn something genuine about the spa "designed like a Polar Bear" from someone whom was intelligent and educated about them.
This is the extent of the Arctic Spas Education after 11 pages of reading...
- "Arctics are more similar design to that of a thermal panel"
- "I'm sure Arctics aren't better than a Coleman"
- "We have a 900 sp ft filter that filters down to 1 micron"
- "most thermal panel tubs are not using the same insulation style as Arctic"
- "There are tons of features, jets, lighting, even shell designs that I would love to see added to are line up."
- "no more cleaning of the filter just take it out every 5 months and put a new one in for only 39$ canadian"
- "with well water [the 900 sq ft filters] tend to not last as long off the first filling"
Additional education from the Arctic Salesman:
- "thermal panel spas are just full foam tubs with out the foam"
- "a Home Depot spa could sit in a show room with the cover on and hold temps like that"
- "if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two,"
- "if you where to push a couch with enough velocity and force parts of the couch would enter the key hole"
stabone, your purpose to post here must be a sneaky hidden agenda soley to support all of the aweful things said about Arctic Spas and their sales approach, otherwise you have inadvertently presented fantastic argument to support the valididity of Arctic's "bad rap".
Thanks fer nothin...
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wmccall, you have my permission to move my summary to the beginning of this thread to save the poor souls from reading this entire topic to learn nothing new about Arctic Spas.
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What the hell does it matter what I think a tubs operating costs are, Steve I think you are so full of shit and I haven't heard anyone say anything about us pushing for our manufactures to get a test together that we can all agree on, you guys would rather sit here and keep believing that nothing can be improved and all your arguements revolve around the way things have always been done and if the big guys haven't done it well it's no good, well thinking like that gets you left behind,
Does Arctic hold any patents on their designs??? Any patents on their proprietary features??? Many of the so called "BIG BOYS" do in fact hold and/or have held MANY of the patents of the technologies and processes that are commonly used in the industry. Call me crazy but companies such as Marquis, Dimension One, Watkins, and Sundance didn't become the well respected and widely known industry leading companies that they are today by relying on "old" technology or sitting on their hands. They are constantly researching, developing, and designing new: features & shell/spa designs; new processes to make their spas more efficient; new technology, all so that they stay at the forefront of our industry. If they didn't do these things they would fall behind.
And I should Also note that resorting to name calling, and spewing out ill-informed highly biased information is sure fire way to hurt your credibility even more. So check your facts (not just what the marketing and PR dept. at Corporate tells ya either), do some research on the "other guys" and then we'll talk.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
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Stabone,
I completely understand that you are getting quite a backlog of questions, all of which are important and moderately complex and beyond your salesman experience to address.
You don't sound well versed in them, and perhaps you should read up on back logs to understand where your product really does differentiate itself (if, indeed, it does differentiate itself in an engineering sense). So far, all I have seen is that Arctic differentiates itself with its marketing tactic.
So, let's just cut some slack. No more "big hard to answer" questions. Let's warm up first:
larger filters take longer for depree to slow down water flow so to put less strain on the pump
Do you mean "debris" or is "depree" an Arctic marketing word for the types of particles that Arctic spa's filter?
If we can get this answered, I'll post another.
-Ed
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Really with 20 of you all coming at once , How can I answer that many questions, so I will try to get to some of the more pointed questions. If you guys could wait long enough before all jumping in, First of all any thermal panel tub that has insulation on the shell of it's tub will have very little heat transfer from air space to the water, By using a fiberglass shell with NO insulation on it you don't block the heat from the water away from the air space, nor the heat from the pumps from the water. The last coleman I saw had insulation on the shell, How can you argue that insulation will allow the same amount of heat transfer as fiberglass!!! To that point the more heat from the pumps that can be used to help maintain water temperature with out the heater having to turn on is more efficient!! Thermal Panel Spas with insulation on the shells only use a warm air space as insulation, that is why they are not as efficient as FF, but the benefit is the serviceabilty, and that the equipment is in a insulated air space in cold temps. This makes ours more effecient, we have you in our energy test, but you don't have us in yours???
Again, this thread is moving so fast , I am replying before reading allthe content.
Firstly, I have never heard anyone from Coleman state that the heat transfers through the shell, its through the plumbing. Once again you are showing that you know one way and you beleive its the only way. Heat transfers in through the plumbing on a Coleman
Secondly, you are saying that heat transfers through fiberglass, and that is exactly what your "superior" sealed bottome is composed of!
Lets talk also about the "slits" in two opposing panels of the Arctic spa, which if placed correctly in your backyard would allow the prevailing winds to travel right through your "sealed" cabinet. Now if allthe heat transfersup throught the fiberglass, what is the purpose of these slits? Only thing I can think of is ventilation. If Arctic has corrected this engineering flaw in the last 12 months, please correct me and accepot my aplogy for bringing it up and not shopping the product recently.
HTM
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Again, this thread is moving so fast , I am replying before reading allthe content.
Firstly, I have never heard anyone from Coleman state that the heat transfers through the shell, its through the plumbing. Once again you are showing that you know one way and you beleive its the only way. Heat transfers in through the plumbing on a Coleman
Secondly, you are saying that heat transfers through fiberglass, and that is exactly what your "superior" sealed bottome is composed of!
Lets talk also about the "slits" in two opposing panels of the Arctic spa, which if placed correctly in your backyard would allow the prevailing winds to travel right through your "sealed" cabinet. Now if allthe heat transfersup throught the fiberglass, what is the purpose of these slits? Only thing I can think of is ventilation. If Arctic has corrected this engineering flaw in the last 12 months, please correct me and accepot my aplogy for bringing it up and not shopping the product recently.
HTM
Very good point here HTM all I have to add is that we are avoiding the obvious, if first and foremost your heating the water with an electric element and not depending entirely on the "Cabinet Heat" then wouldn't you be more concerned with what can travel out of the shell than into it? I thought the point was to make the shell a self contained unit that doesn't allow things like heat to "eek" in and out! If you don't insulate the shell so that you can allow the motor heat to creep in then, as many have asked already, wouldn't that make it even more susceptible than most spas for the heat to creep back out when the motors are not running and not providing radiant heat? I'm sure that Chas touched on this somewhere but your electronic equipment, motors and even pluming will have a greatly diminished life span simply because of the volatile heat environment that they are kept in! They need to be cooled much like a car engine needs cooled with a radiator less the parts get hysteresis (where the flex of an item cannot return to original shape or setting because of wear, fatigue or molecular changes). In almost every field electronics have a cooling fan on them to prevent excess heat on the CPU's and Chips yet your creating an environment contrary to that.....?
This would also apply to glue joints, you bashed the use of barb, clamp and glue to tout the way your spa is plumed saying that it was impossible to do a repair in that type of situation, isn’t the point to gluing two items together so that you can’t get them apart? So if you fatigue the glue with constant and extreme heat, breaking it down over time, wouldn’t you want the extra support of barb and clamp?
Stabone, you are very passionate about defending the way Arctic does things but obviously have no background in engineering and electronics. If you do than your ethics might be a bit askew because your ignoring the laws of physics to make sure your gravy train keeps coming.
BTW, In case you’re wondering I do have a background in Physics, Electronics, Thermodynamics, Engineering and more. I spent years of my life in Nuclear Metrology, in addition to many, many years in the spa industry.
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I spent years of my life in Nuclear Metrology, in addition to many, many years in the spa industry.
"Nuclear Metrology," that's the big prison outside of Chino, isn't it? How many years of your life did you spend there?
Kidding !! Actually, some of my best friends are into Neutron Metrology. One of them has an HPGe gamma-ray spectrometer (59 keV to 1408 keV - they're saving for a larger model) in her basement.
I guess you didn't want a "standard" life anymore?
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I just wanted to let you all know that I am working on a script based on this ongoing saga.
I'm thinking Steve's role will be played by George Clooney. I was thinking Stuart to be played by Harrison Ford but since he just stated his background in Nuclear Metrology I'm now thinking a more studious type like Anthony Hopkins.
Stabone of course will be played with cerebral excellence by Sylvester Stallone.
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I just wanted to let you all know that I am working on a script based on this ongoing saga.
I'm thinking Steve's role will be played by George Clooney. I was thinking Stuart to be played by Harrison Ford but since he just stated his background in Nuclear Metrology I'm now thinking a more studious type like Anthony Hopkins.
Stabone of course will be played with cerebral excellence by Sylvester Stallone.
"Hey Adrian, get me a towell, will ya?"
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Or - "Cut me Nick, cut me! Just don't let it drip into the spa!"
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I'm thinking of Patrick Stewart for my part. What do you think?
(http://www.patrickstewart.org/images/splashpage/stage2.jpg) (http://www.thepsn.org/psn/images/newsbriefs/patrickinstallation.jpg)
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i was gonna go with Brad Pitt for you Chaster but if you would rather Have Mr. Stewart then ..... Make it So. ;)
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"Nuclear Metrology," that's the big prison outside of Chino, isn't it? How many years of your life did you spend there?
Kidding !! Actually, some of my best friends are into Neutron Metrology. One of them has an HPGe gamma-ray spectrometer (59 keV to 1408 keV - they're saving for a larger model) in her basement.
I guess you didn't want a "standard" life anymore?
Chas, you never cease to amaze me! I was waiting for you to come back with a Weatherman joke and you actually hit me with a true instrument pun. Kudo's, most people have no clue what metrology really is in fact for a long time it wasn't even in spell check on word!
One of the more interesting things I got to do back then was calibrate dimensional and optical items with laser beams on surface plates!
It was only interesting for the first few years and then it got very mechanical and boring. I have a pretty weird resume including Master diesel mechanic, welder, office equipment repair, electrical, counselor and more.
The Metrology field has advanced so much in the last 20 years that I’m a dinosaur compared to the guy’s in the field now!
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P.S. Like someone said in this thread (Stu?Steve?) Thankyou for reinforcing everything that we already beleived about Arctic sales/marketing and showing your true colours :) ;) :D ;D
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Now that is the epitome of an Arctic salesman! (probably not all but defiantly the ones I've met).
I do have to laugh though, few who know me would consider me a computer geek! I’ve been mistaken for a mass murder at times and maybe an over the hill WWF guy but never a computer geek!
Yah, but I think it was you and Chas he was most spooked by, using big words like "Neutron Metrology". The project he was referring to was actually looking these words up in his dictionary. ;)
I fit a similair physical profile Stuart, so I hear ya. My wife thinks I'm a computer geek though :P
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(http://ww.dutchballoonregister.nl/k/phkipsmall.jpg)
Chas on the other hand, IS a computer geek! ;D
Dude, where do you come up with these pictures all the time?! Are you making them to fit the moment? ;) 8)
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Chas on the other hand, IS a computer geek! ;D
Dude, where do you come up with these pictures all the time?! Are you making them to fit the moment? ;) 8)
I just did a Google search on "Artic Salesman," and that's what came up....
Sorry to all of you Artic salesmen who aren't full of hot air....
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As a kid I saw my dad go off to work
He ran the family store
He wore a suit and always was so nice
To anyone who came inside the door
Early on I knew this life was not for me
You worked too hard and had to be polite
When I grew up I knew I'd sleep through most the day
Play in my famous rock band every night
But later on I had to get a job -- something dangerously wild,
and nothing like my dad's
Now I'm an Arctic salesman (that's what I am)
I can answer your questions without any facts
While I jingle pocket change in my double-knit slacks
I can sell you arctic spas that don’t need a heater to heat
I'll even sell you python boots that don't fit your feet8)
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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stuart I think you've founf a second business venture as the next Dr. Seus!!!!!
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I'm thinking of Patrick Stewart for my part. What do you think?
(http://www.patrickstewart.org/images/splashpage/stage2.jpg) (http://www.thepsn.org/psn/images/newsbriefs/patrickinstallation.jpg)
And for me, Don Knotts, as modeled by "The Ghost and Mr Chicken.
I think I'm closing this one before I get yelled at again.