Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: KC-SWO on September 20, 2004, 08:59:21 am
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Seems to me a everyone agrees on this board that
a spa newbie will screw up his water. Most also agree
that the best time to buy a hottub is in preparation for
the colder weather.
This puts me in a situation that others must have been
in before, if I install my tub at the mid-end of Oct, my
first water change will be in the famous Canadian winter.
Is this a problem?
It can't be fun?
Thoughts?
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well if you do like i did. you will screw up your water the first time. so you will probably have to change it much sooner.so if you buy in oct. figure on your first change around dec. then maybe you will be good till almost march before you need to again. :o
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Good Question..!
Does anyone here have any tips for winter water changes (ie very cold Canadian temperatures)...?
Although our water is good for now, the change-over would likely occur in Nov or Dec.
Jc
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I live in Minneapolis, so we've got this issue to deal with as well. What I did last year, which was the first winter we had our spa, was to wait until very late October or early November to change the water.
Then we just rode it out till early March, when things warmed up enough to change again without the threat of freezing. It worked, we went just over 4 months on that water. Longer than I'd prefer, but I can't see changing the water in 20 degree or lower temps.
The water was fine, btw.
One thing I did consider but didn't do is a partial water change, remove maybe 1/3 or so, and refill.
I shut off the water to the outside spigots in the fall, and you probably do likewise. We could put a hose on the sink in the basement, and run water to the spa if we had to.
Brewman
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I change my water in early December and it lasts until early April. So far I have been able to avoid any winter water changes, though I usually need to add about five gallons per week due to increased evaporation.
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I was going to replay but Brewman covered it. In soutnern Ontario I see most of my customers draining in mid-end of November and riding it out till Spring.
Happy Tubbing!
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Thanks guys.
I'm feeling a little better about this.
HTMan, where in Ontario are you?
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Maybe this will make you feel a little better too... A service tech of ours came in to pick up some paper work the other day and told us about his last appointment. He said the lady has owned her spa for a little over two years and was not aware that you are supposed to change the water. 2 year old water! Grooss (I said) and the tech said "Actually, her water was crystal clear".
A side note: Warm water in a pipe will freeze faster than cold water.
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AHH HAAA!!!
I quote:
"He said the lady has owned her spa for a little over two years and was not aware that you are supposed to change the water. 2 year old water! Gross (I said) and the tech said "Actually, her water was crystal clear".
I did a post on not changing water a few weeks back and most people thought I was CRAZY.
Why change water if the chemistry is good and the water is clear?
How often do large pools and water parks change THEIR water? I bet these places get a LOT more worse stuff in them then hot tubs.
I usually don't change the water in my tub. I only add water or remove water (displacement for more than 4 people).
Why waste water when you don't need to?
Drewski
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Comfort Factor. If you are comfortable sitting in the same water for 2 years...by all means do it. It's your tub/water/filth. Keep in mind that you do perspire in the tub (amongst other things) and 2 years of perspiration can amount to quite a bit. If you don't mind soaking in it, it doesn't matter.
Of course you also have to take into consideration that the water will need more adjustments over time (ie. spend more on chemical balancing) and there is of course that whole TDS thing.
Keep in mind; we don't make money on your water bill. If you fill every 5th day, we don't see any benefit.
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Hey huh.
Would be intresting to know what the CYA is of that tub?
really curious if the lady follows Dichlor add and Dichlor shock.
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One thing I did consider but didn't do is a partial water change, remove maybe 1/3 or so, and refill.
This worked great for me last winter, and I will use that technique to carry my current water till early Nov. I'm fortunate, I don't have to turn my outside spickets off and I have two within easy reach of the tub. I keep both hoses in the basement in the laundry room. Only once in 20 years of living here have we gone more than 30 days without it going above freezing. But even below freezing, I can refill my tub in 30 minutes with both hoses. Of course in Jan, the water out of the spicket is around 45 degrees and that takes a long time to get back to 102.
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Sometime last January, in the middle of a really cold snap, temperatures near zero, I discovered that "someone" left the cover unlocked, and "somehow" it got flipped open. I have no idea how long it was like this, but I lost about 60 or so gallons of water to evaporation. I eneded up toting out refill water in 5 gallon pails. Yech. I was too lazy to go get the hose out of the garage and pipe it out of the laundry tub, but not too lazy to lug over a dozen heavy buckets of water the 25' from the laundry tub to the spa.
Brewman
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A side note: Warm water in a pipe will freeze faster than cold water.
Ummmmmmm who told you this? Warm water takes longer to cool to freezing than cold water but the difference will be minumal at best. Not a noticable consideration. Now if you throw warm water in the air and it is 20 below it will crystalize where cold water won't but that has to do with molecules bouncing off one another. Warm water is however used in commercial ice machines, but not because it freezes faster but because it makes clearer ice, again molecules and less oxygen in the water.
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Huh? is absolutely correct ("warm water in a pipe will freeze faster...") And the reason is exactly as stated by Tman ("less oxygen in the water.")
Common knowlege to plumbers who fix frozen pipes in winter: The hot water heater in your basement drives the oxygen out of the water. Hot & cold line both running along a cold foundation wall = ice forms in the hot line first (remember, overnight the water standing in the pipes does not stay hot, they both cool to the same temp, one side has reduced oxygen.) The cold line may be the one to burst but only due to a weak spot in the pipe wall. Ice crystals will form first in the reduced oxygen (hot water line) side. ;)
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Ummmmmmm who told you this?
The Department of Physics, University of California. I assume they know what they are talking about. It's called the Mpemba Effect. See the link below.
:-*
Mpemba (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html)
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A side note: Warm water in a pipe will freeze faster than cold water.
The Mpemba is an unexplained phenomenon that has supposedly been witnessed under certain controlled experiments. That certainly does not mean that "Warm water in a pipe will freeze faster than cold water."
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It take it to mean that warm water CAN freeze faster than cooler water, not that it always will, or won't.
Brewman
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And that is what I should have put too.
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Warm water does not freeze quicker than cold water.
Okay it is a matter of semantics but we should be clear... what is true is that cold water that was previously heated can freeze quicker than cold water that was not previously heated. To me that is quite different.
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Empolgation,
May I suggest......
1. See the post I made for Vinny
2. Pick a side
3. Purchase based on said preference
4. Open said preference
5. Open spa
6. Relax
Why do we seem to get soo pationate about the things that don't matter? Who cares if warm water will or will not freeze faster. I was just restating something that I heard. I didn't mean to pee in anyones cheerios. There is no right or wrong.
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huh?
Suggestion taken, thanks...
No need to get flippant, please see suggestion above.
With all the moot discussions I saw no need to toss in another unqualified fact to add fear for a spa newbie to have them start worrying about keeping their tub cold in the winter so it doesn't freeze ;)
Why do we seem to talk soo much about things we don't care about? Good thing I don't eat cherrios. There is no hot or cold. :)
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Ok so we are clear on this right? Warm water, cold water, freezing. For here in Northern Minnesota this is a very old wifes tale that has been tryed thousands and thousands of times at every school science department and back yard around. It's easy when you have - 20 F regularily in the winter.
And as I stated. Set a styrofoam cup of hot water outside and a styrofoam cup of cold water outside on a -20 degree day and you will see skim ice faster on the cold water cup but by the time it gets to the cup freezing solid there will be no noticable difference in the freez time. I'll try it again this winter when it gets 20 below again and post the results live, but as stated been there done that. Not true. To say it will happen in your pipes faster is just plain false. Cause you won't notice.
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To really get this thread going - Does water with ozone freeze faster or slower? :) :) :) :D
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Serious question.
Let's say you do have to drain the spa for whatever reason in the dead of winter, say 20 degrees out.
How much time would you have to refill the spa before anything starts to freeze? If you can fill the spa with 2 hoses how long would that take for 500 gal spa and will the pipes freeze while you are filling it? Want to get as much info as I can, my spa is coming next week and winter is just around the corner.
Jonathan
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"Let's say you do have to drain the spa for whatever reason in the dead of winter, say 20 degrees out.
How much time would you have to refill the spa before anything starts to freeze? If you can fill the spa with 2 hoses how long would that take for 500 gal spa and will the pipes freeze while you are filling it? Want to get as much info as I can, my spa is coming next week and winter is just around the corner. "
How much time do you want to take? As long as the water is running, your hoses won't freeze (unless of course you are pumping 33 degree water through your hoses. Keep in mind that most domestic (and well) water is about 50 degrees at the tap. (Water pipes are kept below the freeze line so that the earth tempers the temperature.) 50 degree water running through a hose will not freeze under anything like rational hose length. (The temp drop will take a long time, and aided by water pressure you would probably need hundreds, if not thousands, of feet for it to freeze - sorry I'm too lazy to do the math!
;D
Now, as to the water, once it's in the tub, the water is in motion, and you are constantly adding more thermal mass. As such, you will not see any freezing during filling. In fact, it will take a couple of hours before the tub's temp will be low enough to ice over.
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I think what new2tubbining was asking was if the standing water in the spa plumbing would freeze in the time between powering down the spa to drain, and powering it back up after filling.
Good question. At 20 above you may be ok. At 20 below, I wonder.
Brewman
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I think Brewman is close to what I am asking.
I am not worried about the garden hoses, I know that moving liquid cannot freeze easily. I was wondering about the water in the pumps, heater, ozinator, tub piping.....? How long do you have until you have to start to worry about those hoses freezing and cracking?
I have the ability to run a hose from a slop sink in my laundy room to fill the spa, so I could fill it with hot water from that source and cold water from my outdoor spigot, so that should help, but I am worried about the systems mentioned above.
Jonathan
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Well, let's see.... The water that's left over in the plumbing will drop in temp fairly quickly. How long does it take for you to clean the tub? If you can knock it out in an hour or so, you should be ok. Look at it this way, it takes about 1/2 hour or so for ice cubes to skin over in a freezer. It takes longer than that for a full freeze. And that's with cold air circulating in the cabinet, not a situation you should see in spa plumbing. So an hour or so should be safe.
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Plenty of time, stick your fill hose in your filter weir, the water will then circulate through your plumbing to enter the tub. It takes many days of 20 below to freeze the 100 foot water fall on the river next to my house! And it's fun sliding down it when it's froze, cept seeing that water under the ice still falling is kinda freaky!
Sucks refilling when it's that cold though. I put shorts on and crawl in the warm water and use it to clean as it drains, then rinse and refill.