Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Cajun_Mike on May 18, 2004, 02:36:57 pm
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Please tell me what you paid for your new Optima delivered, setup and everything that was included in your price so I can kinda get an idea of the ranges to be expecting.
Thanks. ;)
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$12,000 CND.
All taxes, easy lift, cover, 18 months chems + 5 micro filters and 1 reg filter, CD Ozonator, LED light, crane delivery, don't pay for a year, I'm sure I missed something.
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7200 without tax including:
led lights
cover
lifter
chemicals
I am trying to get to a more reasonable price of 6500. Spas have 60 to 75% (probably more) markup.
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Although I am never one to contradict. Lost too many arguments with my wife. Needaspa, I seriously doubt you figures. You have proof on your profit margin claims??? if not don't grandstand like that. It really does not add value to a board as respectable as this.
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Like doodoo, I paid approx 12 000$CND, NOT including his crane delivery. The spa was 9500$CND (about 7300$US) before taxes and extra package (LED, Ozone, lifter, ...). Our dealer told us they shoot more for quantity with a LOW margin of 20%. Maybe it is a lie, but why tell us that then? Then it doesn't leave much haggle room at 7500$, needaspa, they have to cover their expenses AND make some money. With my figures, at 6500 your dealer would be losing money, provided its cost is the same as mine. Shipping cost may be higher here (Northeast Canada), but it wouldn't be that big either. So think about it.
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Julie,
'With my figures, at 6500 your dealer would be losing money, provided its cost is the same as mine'
What figures do you have? I am trying to find the true, preinflated cost.
Thanks
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Cajun_Mike,
;)
Reading perhaps a thousand or more threads in the past month, I studied and compiled the prices posted for several specific brands on this site, over a 2 year period. A typical price for the Sundance Optima, with the usual goodies (cover, cover lift, dual step, starter chemicals, ozonator, and setup and delivery, excluding any crane work) was about $8,000 or a little less at $7,700. The highest price was $8,400 and the lowest was $7,300.
The actual price at your dealer and location is highly dependent on the local market situation and how much overhead your dealer has, as well as the costs he has to pay for shipping from the manufacturer. Some folks do not realize that the typical price usually includes a really cheap set of steps, an aftermarket ozonator, and minimal chemicals. You can negotiate or pay for an upgrade for better steps, the real manufacturer's ozonator (which typically put out at least twice as much ozone per specs), and enough chemicals to last a couple months or so. By and large, you'll have to pay $300 to $500 more than the base price to get these upgrades.
This is as definitive as it gets. Good Luck!
Electro
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Electro:
Thanks for the price research! So I should be happy to have paid approx 7300$US (using a the 1.3 factor conversion effective at the time I purchased).
Needaspa:
I you would have read my post carefully, you would have seen that my dealer told me about a 20% margin. Then you can figure out the rest yourself, if you can do basic maths! Selling price of 7300$ and margin of 20% gives its cost: 6250$, and margin 1250$. So at 6500$ the dealer is not really making any money, probably not even covering its costs. I don't know why I waste my time telling you about this, I don't feel you really want to know. It seems more that you want to tell everyone that the dealers rob and overcharge them, and how little you are going to pay for your spa compared to us!
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kudos Julie, it seems everyones "friend" needaspa needs a dose of reality. He's being unreasonable, and thus will probably never own a sundance optima. actually I have a better idea................needaspa why don't you go to the bank and take out a small business loan and then call sundance and tell them you would like to become a spa dealer for them and start your own spa business!!!!! maybe then you will finally realize the cold hard truth of it all...............dealers are not out to rob customers of all of their hard earned money, dealers sell their products at a fair price that benefits both dealer and customer. Heck, you should be able to make a fortune, what selling your optimas for 6500$, heck I bet you can do better then that............how about selling them for 5000$ a great savings after the "manufacturers" 5500$ reabte ;D
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lol....Poolboy....
that is right you know that old saying...sell cheap and make it up in volume...or its close twin.......go broke twice as fast....Needaspa .....And also your good buddy whypaymore...have either of you heard of a company..."Buy.com" a few years ago they were the 4th largest retailer on the internet...boy you two should have worked for them.... your business minds are so much a like.... anyway if you don't know their story you 2 will really appreciate it...their plan was to sell everything at cost or below and make it up on advertising and service contacts.... well...after accumulating several hundred million dollars in lost revenue...they went bankrupt.....but perhaps you two geniuses can tweak it a little and see if you can go broke together quicker than they did.....good luck.... ;)
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NeedaSPA's figures are off. It is true that spa's have significant mark up. But that's at the FULL REATIL price. On the Optima/Cameo that price is $8,900. The Mark up is NOT 60%. It is more like 40% (unless they are a big dealer where it "might" get as high as 50%). Assuming the 40% mark at $8,900, the dealer cost is around $6K. The Lowest price ANYONE has EVER claimed online for a NEW bare bones Optima is $6,800 and that was a seasonal close out. The most common "best prices" we've seen online are $7,200 to $7,300. If that's the figure he has, he should buy it before the dealer decides he's had enough of needaspa and sells it to someone else.
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thank you bunka.................hopefully wantasaspa....I mean needsaspa will listen to you and take the deal he has on the table!!!!!!!! and then hopefully he'll take his ball and go home :D
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Let me assure all of you... the dealer margin on these tubs is at a minimum 30% and likely 40%. I was in the durable medical equipment industry for almost 20 years until a year ago. At one point in the 80s we even sold spas. That whole industry uses a factor of 1.666. In other words if a tub costs the dealer 5 grand he multiplies 5k X 1.666 to get his list price and if he wants to stay in business he will never sell any tub lower than a 25% margin. Factor for a 30% margin is 1.443 and for a 25% margin 1.333. I'm sure the manufacturers also give them a retail price list that is somewhere between 30 and 40%. I'm sure bigger dealers might be able to get a deal where they order so many spas and get free freight from the manufacturer. Or maybe there is a secondary discount of a few points if they pay their invoices within 30 or 60 days.
The bottom line is that the dealer has to stock the spas, service them, advertise them, pay his utilities, pay his employees, his rent, etc. Some of these profit margins that I have seen cited on this form are an absolute joke and fabrication. If there is anyone here that thinks that a business can operate and succeed with a 20% profit margin, I will show you someone that was probably a liberal arts major in college. :P
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Cajun Mike,
'That whole industry uses a factor of 1.666. In other words if a tub costs the dealer 5 grand he multiplies 5k X 1.666 to get his list price and if he wants to stay in business he will never sell any tub lower than a 25% margin.'
25 % markup - the factor is 1.25
30% markup - the factor is 1.30
etc
So you are saying the industry has a 66% markup. Close, but it is prob in the range 75% to 100%.
'if he wants to stay in business he will never sell any tub lower than a 25% margin' - You can speak for all dealers? There are so many factors that go into the equation that creates sale price some including time of year (a sales quota needed to achieve), discounts from manufacturer, etc.
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I am more apt to belive Cajun Mike than you.
He at least cites real life exaples, and sounds credible and reasonable. You on the other hand, can't provide one gram of evidence to support your claims. Where did you get YOUR inside track on spa pricing?
Brewman
PS- How's that $6500 spa deal going?
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On one of these recent threads, someone said they pay 6000 for a optima/cameo (same pricing) from the manuf. Apply a fair $500 profit - that allows a retail price of 6500 per unit.
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Just because someone says something doesn't mean it is true. And marking up something $500 does not mean that the dealer is making a $500 profit. Profit comes AFTER other costs of doing business are covered.
Didja miss ECON 101 in school?
Seriously, get a clue.
Brewman
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It seems that some of you understand 'business 101' and some of you don't.
If you want to talk about markup, you need to understand what it is and how it is figured.
If an item costs $1000 and is sold for $2000, that is a 50% markup. That means that 50% of the selling price was markup - and this is the generally accepted use of the term.
Now, it may cost $900 to get that product from the manufacturer to the consumer's home - what with advertising, store rent, store operating costs, shipping, insurance, delivery and set-up, included items, employees, etc. So the Net Profit would be a hundred bucks.
If an item is free, and is sold at anything over free, then and only then do you have a '100% markup.' That could mean I got a spa free and sold it for $1. This happens when I get a call telling me, " come get it and you can have it."
So if needaspa is claiming 66% is standard in the industry, I think he may mean a real markup of around 33%, and he would be about right.
But when somebody tells me that THEY are the arbiter of a 'fair' markup for me to get on a given deal, I politely offer to show them one more thing - the door.
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I think someone failed Math 101.
'If an item costs $1000 and is sold for $2000, that is a 50% markup. That means that 50% of the selling price was markup - and this is the generally accepted use of the term. '
Thats a 100% markup in your example! Here is the math:
( (2000 - 1000) / 1000 ) * 100
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Must be either the New York area or me...price I get on both the Optima and the Hot spring envoy is approx. $8500...could the fealer really come down another $1000??? :o
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Mowgli,
I have been quoted 7200 (plus tax) for an optima/cameo with:
cd ozonater
cover
lift
led lights
chemicals
I am working them and trying to get 6500.
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Thats a 100% markup in your example! Here is the math:
( (2000 - 1000) / 1000 ) * 100
Sorry, but you have it completely wrong. I stand by my example. I'm not really sure where you got your equation, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Markup is the percentage of the retail price that's above the cost. $1000 is 50% of $2000 - no matter who does the math. Here's a quote from a site with definitions of retail terms - since you don't seem to want to believe somebody who is actually IN business:
"Markup - The amount added to the cost price of goods to give the required selling price. " Find that at:
http://www.hbc.com/hbc/mediacentre/mediakit/glossary/#M
or any other site that defines retail terms.
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Chas:
Why are you up? It is like 7:38 over on that side of the world.
Chris H
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Say the tub is costs 5000 from the manuf. It is marked up 75% to 8750 or 3750 in markup. This markup (3750) covers dealer costs and profit.
The big question is and this is where the grey area takes over. What are costs and profit???
'$1000 is 50% of $2000' Yes, that is going from 2000 to 1000. It is 100% markup from 1000 to 2000.
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Give up, Chas! Needaspa will not listen to reason!
I stand behind you! I am in charge of profit margins in our business (Automotive Refinish). I purchase the goods coming in and price them to go out.
Example: Masking tape-3/4" comes to me at say $1.50. 30% mark-up (divide by .7) and it comes to $2.14. That is what it costs my customer to buy it. They in turn mark-up 30% (again, divide by .7) and the list price is $3.06 (with rounding).
You can also take list and mark it down for each (multiply by .7).
It has worked for our company for 30 years!
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Lori,
That's not 30% markup - its 43%. Your company's been doing this for 30 years!!! Wow, where did you get your employees - a second rate college? Are you using fuzzy math?
If tape is $1.50 and you sell to your customers at $2.14, thats 43%.
( (2.14 - 1.5) / 1.5 ) * 100
Come on now, this is elementary!
Divide by .7 to get 30%? Hello! This is illogical!
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Needaspa,
Just one question, what do you do for a living?
Many of us on this board try to help the shopper find the right spa for them. Rarely have I seen them bash the competition( Rev. Jim excluded), but I have seen them get frustrated with someone who thinks they know more comes to this webboard and tries to tell them how they have been doing business for decades is wrong.
I know Chas, (it's me Moe) and I have the utmost respect for they way the man conducts himself, in person and on various webboards. When someone like Chas speaks on these boards many listen, except for you.
Get your business 101 book out, and learn about margins. Unfortunately this book will not help you with customer service and people skills.
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Like I said, only 2% of the US is college educated. 'When someone speaks on these boards many listen' Its sad that 'many who listen' are part of the other 98%. It may not be their fault they do not have a college education but it is saddening to see that they listen and follow the ignorant few on this board.
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OK, I can't help it anymore--I must respond. I've been lurking on several boards for some time doing research for my next spa purchase. For the most part, I've observed people offering advice, experiences, and support to those who ask questions. Except for TheOneWhoWillNotBeNamed, posters seems to be friendly, helpful and behave in a manner to build a positive online community. Then needaspa comes along. I can understand his point of view, in a general way--things always cost more than one would like, and impulse buyers can often pay more than the average or reasonable price for an item. But insisting on getting a price below the average, or even lowest cost of an item in your region is well, let's say unrealistic. To dictate what the seller should be allowed to make as profit is ludicrous. To go further, and suggest that customers line up lawyers to "force" dealers who had nothing to do with the sale of your item but who just happen to represent the same brand you bought--wow, I bet you win friends often when you buy durable goods.
Needaspa's tone has become more strident and disruptive lately since engaging in several flame wars. His recent posts have included statements passed off as fact without any supporting basis, and that is something that really annoys me.
For example:
If tape is $1.50 and you sell to your customers at $2.14, thats 43%.
( (2.14 - 1.5) / 1.5 ) * 100
Come on now, this is elementary!
Divide by .7 to get 30%? Hello! This is illogical!
There are apparently multiple ways to calculate markup, but a common one in the retail trade is just as Chas described. Selling a spa that cost $1000 for $2000 is a 50% markup. The formula is $ Retail = $ Cost / (100% - markup %), visit http://www.apparelsearch.com/retail_math.htm.
In a separate thread, you claim just 2% of the US population is college educated. Go visit www.census.gov/prod/2000pubs/p20-528.pdf and you will see that very thorough data show over 25% of the population over 25 years old has at least a bachelor's degree. Hello, this information is very easy to find and understand!! Plus, it's much more "logical" than arguing back and forth--go get real data if you want to beat some one over the head with information.
In the future, get your facts straight before publishing, and, if you wouldn't mind, provide a reference so the rest of us can verify a fact or know that it is just an opinion you are posting.
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Thank you so much for that sound advice...I am guilty of engaging in the ridiculousness of trying to understand his logic.... and perpetuating his argument... as you said so many people here try help and sincerely want to help those looking for good, honest, factual advice....
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To support Needaspa.
67% of all statistics are made up.
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To support Needaspa.
67% of all statistics are made up.
On the spot!
too much to think about, caught between hope and doubt, too much to think about.
Bob and Tom fans'll get it.
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Sorry my 67% statistic is overblown. I'm lowering it to 53% to get more customers.
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lol....do you have an invoice for that 67%..or that 53%
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I'll show what I paid for it from the factory!