Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: squale on October 01, 2007, 12:43:07 pm
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I keep getting a rash on my arms after using the hottub, I am currently using bromine. So my local spa place said to switch to dichlor and use the Nature2 Sundance cartridge that goes into the filter door where you normally put bromine tablets. He told me that I should put a half gallon of bleach into the spa water right now and run the spa for about 20 minutes, THEN drain the spa, wipe down the shell and refill. He said the bleach will KILL anything that is in the spa to rule out any bacterialy problems that may be causing my rash on my arms.
Now is it okay to add 1/2 gallon of bleach to a 385 gallon spa? will the bleach ruin my rubber head cushions on or anything else inside the spa? HOw about the plumbing, heater, motors, etc.. will the bleach hurt any of those components? I'm assuming adding bleach will DRASTICALLY lower the PH and make the water very acidic.
Thanks
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If they are trying to totally wipe out bacteria, and you are going to drain it right after you add bleach to it, I would just use a whole bottle of bleach. Leave the cover off until you drain it and you should be fine. Just don't go longer than an hour with the bleach in the tub.
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A whole gallon??????? >:( You truly want him to burn his lungs permanantly dont you?
BEFORE USING BLEACH- make certain what material the spa is made of as certain brands may turn yellow if the bleach content is too high. For your personal safety please dont pour a whole gallon of bleach in your spa. Mr strike is certainly the wrong person to be giving spa advice. From reading his posts it seems he follows the teachings of Gruver science.
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I have a Sundance Altamar spa
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Two points. First, I used bromine for many years in a Sundance Optima I used to own. No rash problems. About a year and a half ago I bought an Artesian Captiva and used bromine for about a year. I began to develop a rash, particularly on my back because of the jet action. I switched to clorine (using roughly the "Vermonter" method) six months ago and no more rash. So a switch to clorine may do the trick. Second, I have used bleach to clean and sanitize both of my tubs before changing water upon the recommendation of my dealer. Two cups is the most I have ever used. I run the jets for twenty minutes and leave the water in the tub for at least 2 hours before draining. I have left it in overnight on some occasions. I will add that on my last water change, I used Leisure Time's Jet Clean instead of bleach and and my pipes must have been pristine as nothing visible came out of the jets with the Jet Clean process. Hope this helps.
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A whole gallon??????? >:( You truly want him to burn his lungs permanantly dont you?
BEFORE USING BLEACH- make certain what material the spa is made of as certain brands may turn yellow if the bleach content is too high. For your personal safety please dont pour a whole gallon of bleach in your spa. Mr strike is certainly the wrong person to be giving spa advice. From reading his posts it seems he follows the teachings of Gruver science.
With 9 years experience with Sundance spas and working directly with another tech that has 20 years in the spa industry and has a degree in environmental science, I feel very confident telling the poster that as long as he drains the tub no more than an hour later, that bleach will not have any lasting affect on the user or the equipment.
And just how is he going to burn his lungs out if he is going to drain the spa and refill it and wait for it to heat up before using it?
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With 9 years experience with Sundance spas and working directly with another tech that has 20 years in the spa industry and has a degree in environmental science, I feel very confident telling the poster that as long as he drains the tub no more than an hour later, that bleach will not have any lasting affect on the user or the equipment.
And just how is he going to burn his lungs out if he is going to drain the spa and refill it and wait for it to heat up before using it?
I agree, but this should only be done if the spa is outdoors. If inside make sure all the windows are open and leave the room. Also if you use the bleach with the lemon scent that helps with the odor a little.
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Also if you use the bleach with the lemon scent that helps with the odor a little.
Good idea.
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I respect our serjical friends opinion but I don't know if I'd recommend that. First thing I'd do is check the warranty as I would HATE to suggest something that "may" void a warranty.
The issue with liquid chlorine (bleach) is that it dissipates too quickly. You could well achieve what is being asked with granular chlorine and the result would be as good, if not better, by adding a couple cups.
The sanitizer is not causing the rash.
Your first step is to take a sample and get it tested for psunemosis (sp)( I can never spell that fricken word! ) ;D You need to determine IF that's the problem first.
Second, don't use the spa again until the rash is COMPLETELY gone and then wait a week. All you're doing is irritating it and causing it to become inflamed again by not doing so. GO TO YOUR DOCTOR as none of us here are doctors and know your history...
Could it be a heat rash? How's the pH? Have you changed detergents or soaps at home recently? There's lots more to consider than adding a gallon of bleach when a rash is involved and suggesting otherwise would be unhelpful.
Generally speaking, bromine is easier on the skin than chlorine as it's a salt based system.
If it is a bacteria, do not put anything back in the spa that was in it prior to. Toys, floaters, waterwings, etc...
Steve
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I'm getting the same type rash and thought it might be the water as well, but wouldn't my wife and kids get the rash as well if it was a bacteria in the water? They use the tub more then I do especially since the rash should up. Any thoughts would be great.
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Everyones skin sensitivity is different. That being said if it is bacteria I would think everyone in the tub would be affected. I think a more likely problem is your PH is way out of wack. Maybe even beyond repair.
Superchlorinate the water, drain, wipe down with bleach solution, rinse out, and drain bleach water and then refill the tub. This should get rid of the rash problem.
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bleach is very corrosive to stainless steel- I've used it as a sanatizer/cleaner for my brewing equipment, except that if I use it on anything stainless I've got to watch it. Not sure if a gallon of bleach in that much water would harm the stainless or not, but why chance it?
I'm pretty sure the facings on your jets are all stainless steel, and Sundance certainly won't replace them under warranty if they corrode from your use of bleach. You can super chlorinate with dichlor and that should do the trick.
Try swirl away or some other product made for spas if you really want to get the gunk out.
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For some reason, men are more susceptable to this type of rash from a hot tub. Maybe a doctor could explain it but I can't.
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well I did a gallon of bleach, no problems. If you figure on the back of the jug of bleach it says, add 3/4 cup of bleach per gallon for cleaning things like tubs, sinks, laminate floor, tile, etc. I'm sure acrylic is just as resistant if not more to bleach than these other surfaces. So given the above recommend dilution on the bleach bottle, that would equate to 288 CUPS of bleach or 18 gallons of bleach for the recommended dilution. (385 gallon spa x .75 cups of bleach per gallon = 288 cups). I put in about 1 gallon of bleach for 385 gallons so I don't think that was too bad. The water did turn a greenish color though lol. Anyhow, I drained the bleach, I took a bleach dilution in a bucket iwth towel and wiped down the top of the spa all around, all the controls, headrests, etc. I even did the underside of the cover. I then took another towel and just regular tap water and wiped down the areas I just put bleach dilution on. I then rinsed out the inside of the tub with a garden hose, sucked that water back out and now I'm filling her back up as I write this.
I am confident that running a gallon of bleach through the spa with full jets on for about 1/2 hour should definately take care of any bacterial problem I MIGHT of had, even though I don't think my rash is bacteria related at all.
Now I got one of those Sunpurity Nature2 cartridges to put in my filter door (where the bromine tablets go), and I also got some dichlor. I am NOT going to use any bromine this time around, instead this mineral cartrige with dichlor. I also have a CD Ozonator in the spa. I will see if I have better results with chlorine than I did with bromine.
BTW.. if there is a little bleach solution left IN the piping and after the tub is full with tap water and I begin running it, that bleach will mix with the water in the spa. Is this a problem? can you actually put bleach into your spa water as a sanitizer or a shock? I think bleach is actually an oxidizer right? thus it could be used as a shock?
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With 9 years experience with Sundance spas and working directly with another tech that has 20 years in the spa industry and has a degree in environmental science,
If your friend truly has a degree in environmental science HOW would he/she suggest squale dispose of this 75 to 100ppm sodium hypo solution?????
squale
Its too late now as I can see from your post but you did not need to use that much bleach! I would have put in 1 cup, waited 5 mins and tested the water for a chlorine residual. You need to get that residual to about 25ppm only to superchlorinate the water and then let it circulate for about 1 hour. Its also much safer for the environment when you send it down the drain or won't kill your lawn if draining it that way
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My routine: for my 650 gallon L.A. Spa
Thirty minutes to an hour before I drain the spa, I shock the begeezes out of the tub. After the tub is drained, I scrub it with dichlor granules, then spray is down and let it drain. I fill the tub.
Maintenance:
After each use (daily) I toss in one cap full of dichlor. turn on the jets for 20 minutes, then close it up.
Every Saturday, I shock the spa with 4 capfuls fo dichlor.
Haven't had a problem in one year.
***Filters....I spray my (fabric) filters with a water hose, then put them in the microwave for 4 minutes on high. This kills all bacteria and prolongs the life of the filters.
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In order to get rid of biofilm, we have had to to add 5-6gallons of bleach to quickly get the ppm of chlorine level to 100ppm. You NEED to get it that high to make sure you break up the biofilm. If you want to use granular dichlor to get it to the same level, go ahead, but it will probably cost you a lot more. We are not trying to maintain this level for hours or days. We are trying to get it up that high for less than an hour, so the chlorine dissipating is not an issue.
We have dumped that water on all types of manicured lawns and landscaping and have yet to have one issue with dead grass/trees/plants. We have never had an issue with the stainless steel escutcheons on the jets.
I would never recommend bleach as a primary sanitizer, but to get the ppm level up that high and that quickly, it is the cheapest/easiest solution.
@ Bama --- If you used something to test that chlorine, you would probably see that you could get away with adding less chlorine after each use.
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Not intended to be argumentative, but why would you use bleach instead of dichlor? Isn't dichlor about 80% more concentrated and PH neutral? Plus, what about the surfactants and other stuff (lemony scents and such) in bleach? My prediction....Squale will soon be posting about foam problems.
txwillie
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In order to get rid of biofilm, we have had to to add 5-6gallons of bleach to quickly get the ppm of chlorine level to 100ppm.
We have dumped that water on all types of manicured lawns and landscaping and have yet to have one issue with dead grass/trees/plants.
Are you saying that 100ppm chlorine will NOT kill grass, etc.? :o
We use to recommend getting sanitizer levels below 1ppm prior to dumping on the grass!
There's no doubt in my mind that 100ppm WILL kill grass. Sorry....
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Are you saying that 100ppm chlorine will NOT kill grass, etc.? :o
I'm saying that in the dozens of times we have had customers do it, it has NEVER, NOT ONCE, happened. Maybe up here in NH we just have strong grass ;)
We use to recommend getting sanitizer levels below 1ppm prior to dumping on the grass!
So how would you get rid of biofilm? Biofilm takes 50-100ppm chlorine to break down. Are you going to let 100ppm chlorine just sit there until it gets down to <1ppm so the customer can drain it? I would risk dead grass before I risked getting in a tub that had biofilm.
Not intended to be argumentative, but why would you use bleach instead of dichlor?
txwillie
It's cheap.
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Bleach and dichlor will get you to the same place, just with different side effects. They are both chlorine, just manufactured in a different way. Bleach is sold at pool stores in double strength as liquid chlorine or liquid pool shock. It is no different than what you puchase at the local grocery store as long as buying straight unscented bleach.
All chlorines have their good points and their bad points. Bleach has a relatively high pH, is difficult to transport (liquid) and looses strength over time. For these reasons, it is not recommended for use in a spa. It does have relatively few byproducts, is almost all water and is probably the closest to pure chlorine. We use bleach in our washing machines and commercial dishwashers amongst many other uses.
Dichlor has a relatively neutral pH and is easy to transport (quick dissolving granules), thus it is recommended for use in spas...especially by the spa manufacturers. They like pH neutral and quick dissolving. It is nearly 50% by cyanuric acid (aka pool stabilizer) which will build up in the spa water (especially if you shock with dichlor) and reduce the sanitizing abiltiy of the chlorine over time.
There are others such as lithium, cal hypo and trichlor that all have their particular qualities which make them acceptable in certain uses and not so in others, but they all are the same basic chlorine.
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the bleach I used had a slight scent called "Regular Scent" it was the cheapo Americas Choice brand sold by A&P Food stores. I don't think this SCENT will make much of a difference at all.
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the bleach I used had a slight scent called "Regular Scent" it was the cheapo Americas Choice brand sold by A&P Food stores. I don't think this SCENT will make much of a difference at all.
No problem because you just used it to disinfect and then drain. I use bleach in my pool as a sanitizer boost so I use straight bleach or I buy the pool shock at the pool store. When using bleach to sanitize a pool (or spa), you have to watch your pH and be sure you don't spill it on yourself. It will sanitize just fine, it just has characteristics to be aware of.
BTW, bleach is bleach whether it be a name brand or generic.
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@ Bama --- If you used something to test that chlorine, you would probably see that you could get away with adding less chlorine after each use.
Serj,
Thanks for your input.
I use 3 or 4 capfuls; equal to 3-4 tablespoons, of dichlor in my spa, because that's how much
it takes. My spa is approximately 8' x 11' and holds 650 gallons. :o
When I first got my spa, I didn't use enough dichlor. After posting my problems,
My cousin Vinny, Drewstr, Brewman, and Wmcall came up with the solution.
I have not had a problem since, and that was a year ago. :P
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I'm saying that in the dozens of times we have had customers do it, it has NEVER, NOT ONCE, happened. Maybe up here in NH we just have strong grass ;)
So how would you get rid of biofilm? Biofilm takes 50-100ppm chlorine to break down. Are you going to let 100ppm chlorine just sit there until it gets down to <1ppm so the customer can drain it? I would risk dead grass before I risked getting in a tub that had biofilm.
WOW, that IS strong grass! ;D Send me some seeds will ya? Does it chip the blade of the lawnmower when you cut it? ;D
Getting rid of bacteria requires dramatically increased, sustained levels of sanitizer. I haven't read anywhere about the 50-100ppm but I'm not saying you're wrong. Where did you get that info from out of curiousity?
It's not like you can test for levels once over 20+ppm anyway right? :-/
When treating a spa for biofilm and then draining it once all the steps have been accomplished, I recommend draining it ANYWHERE but on the grass. Hows that? :D ;)
Steve
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Hey Guys
It doesnt take 50 ppm to kill bio film!
5 ppm maintained over a 24 to 48 hour period will get it. Now I understand that most here do not want to wait the day or two but believe me 25 ppm for 1 hour and the bio film has no chance.
At work we regularly treat a newly commissioned or re-commissioned watermain to 30 to 35 ppm, wait 24 hours then dechlorinate and flush. We then sample the water, wait 24 hours and then sample again. I have never had a bad sample. This is a watermain I'm talking about, thousands of gallon of water not a 300 gallon hot tub and I have seen some pretty nasty bio film.
And for what its worth I have seen 15 to 20 ppm kill a lawn overnight
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well I just put new water in my spa, and put in some PH Descreaser, Stain and Scale control, and then 4 teaspoons of DiChlor. My spa is 385 gallons. After 10 minutes of adding the DiChlor I was reading 10ppm of free chlorine.
Wonder how long I have to wait to get into the tub?
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well I just put new water in my spa, and put in some PH Descreaser, Stain and Scale control, and then 4 teaspoons of DiChlor. My spa is 385 gallons. After 10 minutes of adding the DiChlor I was reading 10ppm of free chlorine.
Wonder how long I have to wait to get into the tub?
One tablespoon (three teaspoons) gets me close to 10 ppm, shock dose.
One to two teaspoons will get you 2-3 ppm.
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After 10 minutes of adding the DiChlor I was reading 10ppm of free chlorine.
Wonder how long I have to wait to get into the tub?
6-8 weeks...
;) It's always a good idea to shock fresh water. In future, if you are wanting to use it right away, only add half that and shock after you're done using it. Leave it for a couple of hours is what I suggest...
Steve
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Hey Guys
It doesnt take 50 ppm to kill bio film!
5 ppm maintained over a 24 to 48 hour period will get it. Now I understand that most here do not want to wait the day or two but believe me 25 ppm for 1 hour and the bio film has no chance.
At work we regularly treat a newly commissioned or re-commissioned watermain to 30 to 35 ppm, wait 24 hours then dechlorinate and flush. We then sample the water, wait 24 hours and then sample again. I have never had a bad sample. This is a watermain I'm talking about, thousands of gallon of water not a 300 gallon hot tub and I have seen some pretty nasty bio film.
And for what its worth I have seen 15 to 20 ppm kill a lawn overnight
Well...that's my belief too with regards to the lawn but I didn't want to disrespect anyone. This summer I left a noodle in the pool and after I shocked the water, I pulled it out and left it on the grass. It burnt a perfect noodle shape in the grass and I would have shocked to about 10ppm.
Differing grass qualities is what we chalked it up to! ;D
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In order to get rid of biofilm, we have had to to add 5-6gallons of bleach to quickly get the ppm of chlorine level to 100ppm.
When you dump that on your grass - whether it kills your grass or not - a lot of it ends up in your local waterways. Chlorine is toxic to fish at .05 ppm. So, assuming you have about 400 gallons of water at 100 ppm, you just chlorinated enough water to kill all the fish in 800,000 gallons of water.
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In about a 400 gallon tub how quickly does 10ppm of DiChlor dissipate? like 2ppm per hour or something?
btw.. my initial PH from my well water was 8.7 After adding in the PH Decreaser, Scale and Stain and the 4 teaspoons of DiChlor, my PH Reading is now not even coming up on my AquaCheck Trutest digital reader.. it says "Err"... so I'm assuming the PH went higher, I think the highest the digital reader can read is to 8.8
I then tested with visual strips and the PH looked REALLY RED that means very high.
Why would the PH RISE after doing PH Decreaser and DiChlor? I thought DiChlor was PH Neutral and PH Decreaser should cerntainly of bought DOWN my PH. I also noticed that my Total Alk went from 207 to 218 an hour after I shocked the spa, this is all very strange to me????
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In about a 400 gallon tub how quickly does 10ppm of DiChlor dissipate? like 2ppm per hour or something?
btw.. my initial PH from my well water was 8.7 After adding in the PH Decreaser, Scale and Stain and the 4 teaspoons of DiChlor, my PH Reading is now not even coming up on my AquaCheck Trutest digital reader.. it says "Err"... so I'm assuming the PH went higher, I think the highest the digital reader can read is to 8.8
I then tested with visual strips and the PH looked REALLY RED that means very high.
Why would the PH RISE after doing PH Decreaser and DiChlor? I thought DiChlor was PH Neutral and PH Decreaser should cerntainly of bought DOWN my PH. I also noticed that my Total Alk went from 207 to 218 an hour after I shocked the spa, this is all very strange to me????
Let your chlorine levels come down and then check your pH. Dichlor will not raise your pH. It is actually sligtly acidic so it should tend to bring it down. Your high chlorine levels may be shading your pH readings. When your free chlorine levels drop below 5 ppm check again. By tomorrow morning your levels should be down to around 5 ppm and close to zero tomorrow night.
One thing to remember with spas...add a little bit, wait, test and add more if needed. Its easier to add more than it is to counter whats been done with other chems.
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yeah what i don't get is that on the Bioguard print out from my dealer they said to only put in 1 tablespoon of PH Decreaser (the Spaguard brand).. I don't have the spaguard brand of PH Decreaser, I have Baquaspa PH decreaser which is the same ingredients as what are in other PH Decreasers. On the Baquaspa ph decreaser it says that if you PH is above 8.2 to add 3 TABLEspoons per 400 gallons of water. So I did sorta in the middle, I added 2 tablespoons. On the Bioguard printout it says to do 1 tablespoon each day for 7 staight days. Why not just tell me to put in one larger dose instead of having to do it 7 days in a row?
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yeah what i don't get is that on the Bioguard print out from my dealer they said to only put in 1 tablespoon of PH Decreaser (the Spaguard brand).. I don't have the spaguard brand of PH Decreaser, I have Baquaspa PH decreaser which is the same ingredients as what are in other PH Decreasers. On the Baquaspa ph decreaser it says that if you PH is above 8.2 to add 3 TABLEspoons per 400 gallons of water. So I did sorta in the middle, I added 2 tablespoons. On the Bioguard printout it says to do 1 tablespoon each day for 7 staight days. Why not just tell me to put in one larger dose instead of having to do it 7 days in a row?
All pH down and Alk down are the same...sodium bisulfate aka dry acid. An alternative is muriatic acid. With your alk numbers I think you will need a lot of pH down. There are others with the same numbers as you with well water. If I recall it takes a while to get the numbers down. I would stay with the 1 tablespoon a day for now. I'm going to check around to see if there is info regarding you type of situation.
OK, just checked over at another forum and there is a thread regarding the same situation as yours and they're adding ounces of dry acid at a time vs tablespoons. From what I can see you can add up to 2 1/2 oz of dry acid at one time to bring pH and alk down. I wouldn't add that much at once but maybe one oz at a time for high readings like yours. Also, running your jets apparently will raise pH. If you want to check out the thread, its over at www.poolspaforum.com in the hot tub water chemistry section a little ways down.
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I think people are forgetting something - the bacteria in the dirt, sewage pipes and sunlight will kill the chlorine. Yes it will possibly have cya but at a depth of 6" how long do you thing the chlorine will last, I give it 2 hours tops. Now dumping directly into a lake ... no way!
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In about a 400 gallon tub how quickly does 10ppm of DiChlor dissipate? like 2ppm per hour or something?
My tub can hold 3 PPM chlorine overnight, who knows how long 10 PPM will last.
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My tub can hold 3 PPM chlorine overnight, who knows how long 10 PPM will last.
Get a bunch of really big fellas, like professional wrestlers or something, send them on a 10 mile jog on a really humid day, and pop them into the spa.
Bet that'd zap 10 ppm pretty quickly.
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Getting rid of bacteria requires dramatically increased, sustained levels of sanitizer. I haven't read anywhere about the 50-100ppm but I'm not saying you're wrong. Where did you get that info from out of curiousity?
Steve
http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=149
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well my Alk numbers actually went UP overnight? I am putting in 2 ounces (4 tablespoons) of PH Decreaser at a time, and running the jets for about 20 minutes right after putting it in.