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Author Topic: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?  (Read 26530 times)

castletonia

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2018, 07:47:30 am »
Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows.  To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me.  I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.

Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.

The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are.  The pricing game in this market is shameful.  The reviews are unreliable.  Total minefield for the consumer.

As a dealer who has dealt with the Master Spa circus, and has also had a local dealer the last 17 years, here is my thought......

I believe that 75% of the customers that buy from the traveling shows are not customers who would have bought from me or any other local retailer.  These customers were wowed by the enormous discount off the inflated price, fell for the hard sell that they were given, or had no way to discern the false information they are being told and at the time of purchase believed they were really getting a fantastic deal.  To the uninformed consumer, their spas generally speaking can look impressive with the higher jet counts, lots of lights, big pumps etc and I can see how someone who hasn't done their due diligence could fall for the sales pitch.  However, I rarely ever lost a sale to the tent sale on a high-end ($9k+) purchase.  It usually was that sub $8k price point and many times lower price points.

The cabinets Master Spas uses (Confer cabinets) might be the lowest cost cabinet in the industry.  I know this because I've seen the pricing on a Confer cabinet from when I sold Marquis and Sunrise.  Their covers are thick, low-density foam and have poor durability.  I have heard it over and over again from customers that they cost a lot to operate and this is from customers who previously had a full foam spa, so they had a basis to compare to.  The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel.  Not stainless and not powder coated.  They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter.  Also, their EcoPur filters are not magic that requires no chlorine either, like most of their salesman claim.  They have silver in the filter (Nature2, Spa Frog) which requires a lower level of chlorine, not no chlorine.

But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist. 

Oh, and for me specifically, I like it when they do tent sales around me.  Their advertising assault brings more customers into my door which leads to more sales for my company. 

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2018, 07:47:30 am »

swilly1000

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2018, 09:03:47 am »

But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist. 
 

If 90% of the negativity revolves around the ethics of how they sell their products and not the quality of the build, then I remain happy with my purchase. Again, as an end user I don't care how they sell it.  I care whether the product delivers on performance. 

As to the dealer, I purchased from Premium Wholesale in Mississauga.  My impression so far is that they are pretty solid.  Any thoughts?

I will certainly post further feedback after using it for a while.

Michael Russell

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2018, 01:54:12 pm »
Hey Swilly..

Are you fairly local to Premium wholesale?  You dealing with Kitchener or Mississauga?


If 90% of the negativity revolves around the ethics of how they sell their products and not the quality of the build, then I remain happy with my purchase. Again, as an end user I don't care how they sell it.  I care whether the product delivers on performance. 

As to the dealer, I purchased from Premium Wholesale in Mississauga.  My impression so far is that they are pretty solid.  Any thoughts?

I will certainly post further feedback after using it for a while.

swilly1000

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2018, 02:26:55 pm »
Went to PW Mississauga.  I'm in west Scarborough.

Hottubguy

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2018, 03:31:14 pm »
Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows.  To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me.  I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.

Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.

The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are.  The pricing game in this market is shameful.  The reviews are unreliable.  Total minefield for the consumer.

I see you must have skimmed past the reasons why I don’t think Master is a great tub. They don’t affect my bottom line. I don’t have a local dealer very close to me (about 2 hours away) and actually they help my business. We service all brands and we are fixing Master’s quite frequently. At least you bought your tub from a local dealer. That makes a big difference. Agree with pricing and review sites in general. Almost all are bought and paid for. Chris is no different then anybody else. Good luck with your new tub. Hopefully you wet tested more then one tub before you came to the conclusion that the Master was the best option for you

swilly1000

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2018, 05:09:10 pm »

I see you must have skimmed past the reasons why I don’t think Master is a great tub. They don’t affect my bottom line. I don’t have a local dealer very close to me (about 2 hours away) and actually they help my business. We service all brands and we are fixing Master’s quite frequently. At least you bought your tub from a local dealer. That makes a big difference. Agree with pricing and review sites in general. Almost all are bought and paid for. Chris is no different then anybody else. Good luck with your new tub. Hopefully you wet tested more then one tub before you came to the conclusion that the Master was the best option for you
Yes I also wet tested Hydropool and Marquis Vector

No I didn't skim past the reasons:

Cheapest cabinets I have ever seen.....Not sure that I'm going to care about that as long as I don't kick them by accident

One of the loudest tubs to run I have ever heard.Didn't seem that loud to me when I wet tested it

Energy efficiency is lacking. Haven't heard that one in my research, but will trust you on that as you are far more knowledgeable and experienced than me

Manufacturer themselves are next to impossible to deal with. Again, haven't heard that one in my research

They come into my area probably 3-4 times a year and I’m guessing they sell a decent amount of tubs. The people that come in think they got a $20,000 hot tub for !6000 until they realize what exactly they got. Most of these customers are also under the impression that there run is chemical free because of the bozo that sold the tub. Unscrupulous, yes totally but nothing an informed consumer can't feret out.  I experienced that MSRP bulls**t with Hydropool, Marquis and Master....that is industry standard.....and shameful.  And you would have to be foolish to swallow the chemical free lie.  Sadly the whole industry bulls**ts and it's for an educated and resourceful consumer to discover that

They aren’t a terrible tub but there are at least a dozen better options out there

Again, you are far more experienced and knowledgeable than me.  I hope that my research plays out.  Time will tell :)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 05:14:13 pm by swilly1000 »

Hottubguy

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2018, 07:15:14 pm »
One thing I will say about Marquis is MSRP on there tubs is pretty legit assuming dealers were actually giving you MSRP. As long as you are happy with your purchase that’s all that matters in the long run. Hopefully you don’t need the factory for support because they are pretty terrible and don’t back up most of there warranty claims. A good friend of mine is authorized warranty center for there traveling show tubs and I have heard and seen first hand the difficulty there are to deal with. There famous line is that’s not covered. Hope you have good luck with your tub

Michael Russell

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2018, 08:34:53 pm »
Thanks Castle..

My dealer master dealer is further away then I am 100% comfortable with. That said I am seeing it through. They have to offer some pretty good incentives though for me to choose them over Marquis or Artisian.

I will look into the specific things you have mentioned. I have heard a lot of general slag about Master but yours is the first to detail out some things that I can look at to try and make an educated choose.

Specifically I was unaware they were steel framed. I thought they were wood. I will look at this to confirm.
Noise.. I measured the noise of the Marquis from the four corners using the DB meter on my phone. Not super scientific I know but it gives me a point of comparison. The Marquis with both pumps on high, waterfall on and air on measured 65-67DB. I will do the same with the Master and Artisian.
Cabinets I am a little less concerned about, I will have a gander to see what I think.

How does one compare covers? Marquis I know advertise 2lbs foam on the Signature line.  Some others provide thickness.

Regarding filtration.. I am not to worried about each companies magic sauce. Everything I read seems to go back some basic water chemistry. I plan on playing with Enzymes and likely ignoring the other additives once they run out. This will be a huge learning curve as I have zero! experience here.

Whats the story with the rebate scam? Maybe I should just search to see what I can find..

Thanks again!

Mike
As a dealer who has dealt with the Master Spa circus, and has also had a local dealer the last 17 years, here is my thought......

I believe that 75% of the customers that buy from the traveling shows are not customers who would have bought from me or any other local retailer.  These customers were wowed by the enormous discount off the inflated price, fell for the hard sell that they were given, or had no way to discern the false information they are being told and at the time of purchase believed they were really getting a fantastic deal.  To the uninformed consumer, their spas generally speaking can look impressive with the higher jet counts, lots of lights, big pumps etc and I can see how someone who hasn't done their due diligence could fall for the sales pitch.  However, I rarely ever lost a sale to the tent sale on a high-end ($9k+) purchase.  It usually was that sub $8k price point and many times lower price points.

The cabinets Master Spas uses (Confer cabinets) might be the lowest cost cabinet in the industry.  I know this because I've seen the pricing on a Confer cabinet from when I sold Marquis and Sunrise.  Their covers are thick, low-density foam and have poor durability.  I have heard it over and over again from customers that they cost a lot to operate and this is from customers who previously had a full foam spa, so they had a basis to compare to.  The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel.  Not stainless and not powder coated.  They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter.  Also, their EcoPur filters are not magic that requires no chlorine either, like most of their salesman claim.  They have silver in the filter (Nature2, Spa Frog) which requires a lower level of chlorine, not no chlorine.

But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist. 

Oh, and for me specifically, I like it when they do tent sales around me.  Their advertising assault brings more customers into my door which leads to more sales for my company.

castletonia

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2018, 07:49:44 am »
Covers are difficult to determine quality.  I base my opinion on the number of replacement covers I sold for 2-3 year old Master Spas.  In my opinion, many manufacturers use inferior covers to help keep the cost down.

As for the rebate scam, back in the early 2000's Master Spas would offer rebates to their customers.  They varied from 100% rebates to as low as $2k-$3k rebates.  The customer would have to pay the inflated price and if they met all the demands of the rebates, they would get their refund after 36 months.  Less than 1% of the customers got their rebate.  In the end, the rebate company went bankrupt and Master Spas skirted any liability even though they were the ones behind it.

There probably are is threads in this forum detailing the rebate.  My opinion is that if a company is willing to screw their customers once, what is going to stop them from doing it again?  That thought is also why I don't trust Cal Spas either.

Michael Russell

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2018, 09:50:58 am »
Thanks Castle...

I appreciate the detail. I did do some searching and read a little on the rebate scam..  Pretty douche..

Still going to wet test... Its on my way home Friday anyways.

Thanks folks. Will update with new info or decisions..

swilly1000

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2018, 10:27:55 am »

The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel.  Not stainless and not powder coated.  They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter. 


So my Master TS8.25 arrived yesterday and unless I'm missing something, that is a wood frame, not steel.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMD-SIvrQID2iEk277gffjACOvTX7oDXkEvnJUv

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 10:30:52 am by swilly1000 »

Michael Russell

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 11:01:45 am »
Links are not working Swilly....

That said I really thought they were wood framed as well.




So my Master TS8.25 arrived yesterday and unless I'm missing something, that is a wood frame, not steel.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMD-SIvrQID2iEk277gffjACOvTX7oDXkEvnJUv

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM

BullFrogSpasMN

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 06:24:50 pm »
Sounds like another pi**ed dealer whose business is being taken by the road shows.  To be honest, the company's "dishonest sales practices" don't mean s**t to me.  I'm a consumer not the dealer whose territory is being infringed upon. I care about a well made high performance therapy tub, not how the company decides to penetrate it's markets.

Too bad we couldn't filter out the "reviews" of biased stakeholders and just hear from end users about their experiences.

The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are.  The pricing game in this market is shameful.  The reviews are unreliable.  Total minefield for the consumer.

As a dealer who has dealt with the Master Spa circus, and has also had a local dealer the last 17 years, here is my thought......

I believe that 75% of the customers that buy from the traveling shows are not customers who would have bought from me or any other local retailer.  These customers were wowed by the enormous discount off the inflated price, fell for the hard sell that they were given, or had no way to discern the false information they are being told and at the time of purchase believed they were really getting a fantastic deal.  To the uninformed consumer, their spas generally speaking can look impressive with the higher jet counts, lots of lights, big pumps etc and I can see how someone who hasn't done their due diligence could fall for the sales pitch.  However, I rarely ever lost a sale to the tent sale on a high-end ($9k+) purchase.  It usually was that sub $8k price point and many times lower price points.

The cabinets Master Spas uses (Confer cabinets) might be the lowest cost cabinet in the industry.  I know this because I've seen the pricing on a Confer cabinet from when I sold Marquis and Sunrise.  Their covers are thick, low-density foam and have poor durability.  I have heard it over and over again from customers that they cost a lot to operate and this is from customers who previously had a full foam spa, so they had a basis to compare to.  The steel frames are in my opinion a negative because they are plain old galvanized steel.  Not stainless and not powder coated.  They will rust (seen more steel frames rust that pressure treated wood rot) and they are a conductor meaning they will pull in cold in the winter.  Also, their EcoPur filters are not magic that requires no chlorine either, like most of their salesman claim.  They have silver in the filter (Nature2, Spa Frog) which requires a lower level of chlorine, not no chlorine.

But to be perfectly honest, if Master hadn't screwed 1,000's of customers with the whole rebate scam, had a reputable dealer base, or had any history of being a stand-up company, 90% of the negativity wouldn't exist. 

Oh, and for me specifically, I like it when they do tent sales around me.  Their advertising assault brings more customers into my door which leads to more sales for my company.

100% you hit the nail on the head...for longstanding dealers offering premium options Master isn't capturing any of our business really, they are selling to people who see a tent and some balloons setup in a parking lot and think they found the "unicorn" for $8,000 marked down from $15,000 sold by someone who is saying whatever lies they can so they can cash a paycheck before they fly out to their next 'Event' and in reality they bought a $6,495 tub for $8,000


Tman122

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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2018, 08:25:06 am »
The fake and/or biased reviews about Master just further underscore what a nonsensical and cloudy market hot tubs are.  The pricing game in this market is shameful.  The reviews are unreliable.  Total minefield for the consumer.

But yet some how the worst company in this shamefull industry avoids all this?
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Re: Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2018, 08:25:06 am »

 

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