Those with home show questions...Heres your sign!!

[hottubdan]

There are other reasons, but the FACT is full foam costs more, meaning so-called thermal pane costs less to manufacture.

[stl-rex]

There are other reasons, but the FACT is full foam costs more, meaning so-called thermal pane costs less to manufacture.

Are you sure your facts are absolutely correct?  One could speculate that mfrs use full foam to skimp on the shell, making it actually less expensive to make a FF spa than a well designed TP spa whose shell needs no foam to support and no other supports under the seats.  But what the hell do I know.  I'm just a stupid consumer.....

[stl-rex]

Now that's what  I'm talking about!!! Because you own a spa you want to seen as an expert on your brand! I own a BMW Cycle but I know far less about it then the mechanic at the Honda dealership that works on all brands. Staying at a holiday inn express doesn’t really give you knowledge!

No but as an owner, I can give an opinion on my observations and performance of the spa.  Primarily how it performs in relation to what you yourself state is important – clean hot water, good jets and comfy seats, which is generally where I stay.  You don’t hear me rant on about 20 year life expectancy or “TP is the best”.

Do you think Arctic invented Thermopane insulation?
Do you think they engineered that equipment pack or invented the cedar wood cabinet? Fact is that most of the things they have one that spa are ideas taken from other brands.

Nope – spas have been around for some time.  They’re in an evolutionary state.  However, spa mfrs may work with other companies to mfr parts to their specifications that may perform differently than off the shelf equipment used by the bargain basement guys.  Heck they may even engineer their own parts on occasion.

I've seen hundreds of spas with similar features...some last some don't but I've seen them fail and survive at most levels. You've seen your spa…How many wooden rails have you fixed on spas? How many cabinet doors of the same design have you repaired? Do you have any idea how many motors failed on the first brands of TP spas because they never cooled and stayed in constant overheat condition? Do you think they did that in the first 3 years? I promise you that your motors stand a better chance of failure by the 5-year mark than many others but you wouldn't know that because you haven't gotten to that point.

Nope I haven’t got there yet.  My primary concern when wet testing were the jets and seats.  If the motors fail within 5 years, I’m covered by warranty.  If they fail sometime thereafter, I’d still rather have my seats and jets, given what I felt was vastly superior feel and comfort.

[stl-rex]

Do you have any idea how heavy all of those 6 inch covers will get when they begin to water log?

Guess I’ll have to wait and see how heavy that 5”-4” cover gets.  Guess I’ll also have to see if it was marketing speak regarding how quickly they take on water since each core is cast whole and not cut and thus not leaving a more porous exposed edge.

Are you that blinded to see that I have no problem with your relationship with your spa or brand? I have a problem with how they have been marketed for the last few years. Your spa is not the problem, the quality is not the problem, the attitude of many dealers and the way the factory allows and perhaps encourages sales is.  Do you have an identity problem that makes you think your employed by Arctic in some way?

Nah, I don’t think I’m employed by them.  Far from it.  I happen to think it’s a fine tub with great jets and comfy seats.  Since that usually gets lost quickly in any Arctic thread, that is the point I usually add.

You know plenty, you know a lot about your spa and your have a mild knowledge of the few tubs you wet tested but that's it.

The mild knowledge I have is again what folks here keep saying is important – how the spa feels.  Sure it’s my opinion and it’s stated that way regarding jet feel and pressure

I test drove several cars before I bought my SUV but that doesn’t make me Ralph Nader.  

God I hope not!  But you could sure have some strong opinions on which ones handle well, accelerate well, i.e. perform well.  Just as I do regarding the spas I tested.

Your right your formed an opinion...that's all it is, your opinion! You have yet to dissect the industry enough for it to be solid fact. You’re on a journey to that knowledge and this site is part of that but your still a long way from many who have been trekking that road  most of their lives.

And these forums are great for disseminating opinions, along with experience and occasionally relevant facts.

My agenda is the bottom line? What is it that you think I get paid for here? I’ve spent countless hours here helping people on brands that I don’t give a crap about because they felt they had no where else to turn. I’ve called factories, dealerships and even component manufactures to help people on this forum and it didn’t get me a thing! When’s the last time you called a competitor up to help one of their customers for no personal gain? I do it all the time here.

I said dealers, not you specifically.  If you recall, I actually commented that I found most of your posts informative and helpful.  

Where is it that you get that I have contempt for my customers? By me questioning the rudeness of some people at a show? Let me ask you something…Because I make a joking comment about the spa brand you bought, you feel that you can justify attacking me and a brand that you know little to nothing about? Are you OK with the potential that your attitude could take food off of my table? I have no choice but to take this dead serious, it’s my livelihood….It’s your hobby.

Based on prior rather caustic comments from you, I didn’t take it as joking.  I wasn’t the only one as I read through the posts.  

Next week for grins lets get into a discussion about what you do for a living, your obviously bored with it if you spend so much time trying to dominate mine…

Yep I’m down to 2-4 posts per week on average (except this week) and I’m really trying to dominate the industry.

[stl-rex]

Looks like its time to rant...so here I go.

 I'm getting sick of people on this forum suggesting that the only thing that matters is the wet test.

 

Is it the only thing?  Nope, but it should be number one.  Your Maxxus is a pretty slick tub.  Had we purchased it, we'd be pretty unhappy with it and it would get nowhere near the use of our Tundra.  Why?  It didn't fit us.  Your Optima is a nice spa also.  It was probably #2 behind the Tundra.  But the wife fit in more of the Tundra seats due to the sculpted seating.  She had more to brace against to limit float.  The ONLY way to know these things is to wet test.  It does no good to buy a "quality" spa if it doesn't meet your needs.  You won't get the use out of it.

[stl-rex]

Stuart...you are allowed to trash talk any brand you want. If Rex gets hurt tough s**t I also could care less what brand anyone owns for that matter and if they feel they need to constantly justify there purchase and we are not allowed to say one is a piece of junk  and another is terribly built something is wrong. I just think it's funny how I get blasted for trash talking Arctic even though I never do and yet there are a few Arctic guys who instead of coming around and saying "they think Arctic is fine" they continualy jump in and say they are tired of us trash talking Arctic.

Well guess what. I could give a rip what you think. I can trash talk any brand I want!!!

Man this gets sickening, bunch of baby.

It doesn't hurt my feelings and what goes around comes around.  I generally post positive comments about Arctic regarding the seats and jets in the spa I own.  But I also see nothing wrong with responding to BS anti-Arctic rhetoric that invariably gets tossed into any Arctic discussion, solicited or otherwise.  At least you've sat in a Tundra and can legitimately express an opinion from it.  I'd venture to guess most have not.  And while some here claim it's the marketing and not the spa, the threads don't read that way.

[Gomboman]

Oh my god, that was funny. I can't stop laughing thinking about the old people. That made my head ache go away.........

Whatever you do, DO NOT EXHIBIT SPAS AT THE SENIOR EXPO!!!

I made that mistake last year and will never repeat it.  Busload after fussload of angry, bitter, scared folks who love to dump all over the hot tub parade.

"Who would take care of it for me?"
"I'd probably drown in one of those infernal contraptions!"
"How on earth would I get in and out?"
"I would never let anyone see me in a bathing suit!"
"Bathing in public is a sin."

I finally got so fed up, I told this one old geezer why didn't he just go on over to the Lakeview Memorial Cemetary booth and get on their waiting list.  He called me a rude sumbitch and walked off.  I did see him over in that direction later in the day.

Terminator

[Cola]

Can somebody please start a new board for stl-rex so that he can keep writing to himself in peace.  You probably have the most efficient tub around buddy and I'm happy for you.  You will probably save about $80.00 per year in heating cost over my Epic and I'm happy for you.  Hopefully your equipment will withstand the heat from your non Canadian cooler climate so that you will be happy and that I can be happy for you too.  Last but not least, I wist that seat fit you a bit better so that you could spend even more time out there.
Steve

[galen]

I can see that stl-rex is very biased in his opinions.  I looked and tested a lot of tubs before my wife  and I bought. She is only 5'3" tall. And we wanted a tub that wouldn't "float her" out of her seat. Say what you must, but its very clear you didn't test the maxxus.  All the seats but one have wrist jets, All the seats have foot jets, which she can brace with to keep her down into the seat if she has it on high. But its very simple to regulate the flow knob to reduce the flow to your liking. Yes there are other tubs that are very nice. But to say the Maxxus doesn't fit, shows you didn't do your homework well enough. I believe its more about cost than features that turns off a potential buyer. I can't see how seats could be made better  to fit. Hammer if you must, but it just shows me stl-rex, you would complain about the new rope these dealers are going to put around you.

[windsurfdog]

There are other reasons, but the FACT is full foam costs more, meaning so-called thermal pane costs less to manufacture.

If you could explain the difference between "thermal pane" and "so called thermal pane" maybe I can follow your line of thought.  I'm having to assume that the "so called thermal pane" to which you refer is nothing more than a poor implementation of thermal pane which has no more to do with ff v. tp than "so called ff" v. "so called tp".  Or maybe you think there is no such thing as a poor implementation of ff and no such thing as a good implementaion of tp.  Face it, your myopic view of this debate prevents you from seeing any benefit to tp so why not just come out and say it sucks and there is absolutely no benefit at all to tp--that it is inherently inferior and anyone who believes otherwise may be up for a Darwin award soon?

[bosco0633]

This is the kind of stuff that takes the effectiveness of this forum away from consumers.

I feel bad for you sales guys. You have a very tough job out there.  You need to learn to deal with a variety of different people with different expectations.  You are insulted day after day with bargining and shoppers that think that they are informed.  You get frustrated with the same questions over and over and the constant, (hearassment) of aggressive consumers.

I feel bad for consumers that purchase products that they do and read non stop negative reviews from dealers alike.  

I feel bad for the misinformed consumer that wants to come here for information and to share their excitement.  I feel bad that individuals here take a topic and direct it to the old debates over and over.

I feel bad that every time a certain product is mentioned, a negative spin results from it and the first thing that dealer competitors say in defence is that "tell me where I insulted, or slammed the product".  Lets fac it, there have been several posts, with comments made that puts people on defence.  Yeah they may not be a flat out slam, but you know what you are getting at.

The bottom line here folks is that this is your job.  You appeal to the consumer and thats that.  We are what keep you in buisness, food on your table and all that jazz.  In return, you give us a lifestyle that allows for relaxation and enjoyment.  We are not asking for you to be our friends, we are asking for you to support our product that we purchased off of you.  Thats it.  

I may not sell spas, however, I am in the ultimate profession of customer service.  If I have a bad day, the public does not care, if I disagree with something, I dont get to disagree or avoid doing the task.  I do it because it is my job and that is whay I am paid to do.  

Do you think that I like sitting infront of dead people for hours, or the odours that are associated to a dead person found in a heat wave after six weeks.  do you think that I like pulling a 1 year old child out of a vehicle that has passed along.  Do you think that I love getting poked with needles, bit, spit on, and yelled at.  do you think that I like going and watching a person burn alive in a car, and I cant do anything to help.  Do you think that I enjoy going to work not knowing if it is my last day that I see my child.  That means nothing to people, because they only care about me doing my job.  And to me, all I care about is providing for my family.

I am probably the worst guy here, I always get pissed when I read slams to arctic, I am guilty of it and I admit it.  Stuart, it is great that you have a place to vent, I find it enjoyable.  I vent too, with my shift mates after work over cold beer.  Thats the only way I can get through it.  the difference here is that you get the support of neutral people and other dealers in your situation.  you also open yourself up to the anger of people that feel that they have been offended by your comments.  I only choose to vent with those that understand me.  thats where you made an error in my opinnion.

I love this sight, because you get opinions from everyone.  the downside of this, is that it creates conflicts as we can all see.  

we just need to learn not to take them as an attack, rather as information sharing.

I will pass on the words that my training officer said to me after my first critical incident. "You good? suck it up and never let them see it get to you"

hot tubs are fun, lets enjoy them and our time here.

Post away, hey tman you notice, I kept to my agreement, no jumping in about my tub!!!!!!!

[Steve]

For what it's worth, I respect what you do a great deal Bosco. Many years ago I tried to get into the police force here but failed the physical, got a 1 year deferral and din't go back. If there was one job I could pick, it would be yours and hell...I'd be willing to take the pay cut even! Sad but true. Cops should make WAY more money than they do...

Great post at keeping things in perspective...

In closing, BUY A HOT TUB AND ENJOY ALL THE BENEFITS IT OFFERS YOU. PEACE OF MIND AND TOTAL RELAXATION FOR THE MIND, BODY AND SOUL!!

I give a sh*t whether it's FF or not...

Steve

[spahappy]

There are other reasons, but the FACT is full foam costs more, meaning so-called thermal pane costs less to manufacture.

We buy more Coleman spas than Jacuzzi spas, yet the Jacuzzi spas cost us less.

So that logic doesn't add up at all does it....

[Spatech_tuo]

Hymbow,  you are an ignorant FF shill.

Stick your circpump up your butt and start digging for the leak, punk

Time to send this thread to the scrap heap!

[HotTubMan]

I agree with many here that this post has evolved into something ugly.

I still do not believe Stuart's comment was an Arctic slam. He was receipting something I hear time and again from shoppers in my show room and at home shows.

Fact: Arctic sales people (trained by factory representatvies) are trained to say that a tub built in a cold climate will be more efficient and hold up better in a cold climate.

It does not hurt my sales position, because my tubs are made in Canada too.

I do automatically know that when someone makes a comment like that, it was a seed planted by the Arctic guy. Anyone that has Arctic as a competitor locally or at a show, can confirm this.

Is it right to say this? Is it wrong? I will not comment on that.

I will say, what Stuart presented was a short sample of a conversation he had over and over again at a home show. He found it amusing / frustrating.

If you re-read his post, after the 4 sample customers:

I could not begin to tell you some of the stupid questions, angry remarks and lies I heard….

Did you get that? He did not say any of the above stories or people were stupid.

SO, someone reads the words Arctic, customer and stupid all in the same long post and decide they should connect them and attack.