Narrowing it down: Arctic, Phoenix, Hot Springs...

[ndabunka]

Josh - It's good to see your posting getting the attention is deserves.  Out of those that you listed in your initial post, here is my opinion (i know, everyone has one)... The Caldera is going to give you the "most for your money".  Depending on the market you are in, the dealers may or may not be as aggressive on pricing as they need to be.  This board can help you narrow down what a "fair" price would be for ANY tub.

On the VERY low end is Phoenix (It's not Wal-mart but rather is "Big Lots" level in the Spa world.  The 5-star on any one website is probably "paid for" with advertising dollars.  You can find those details somewhere on the web).  They are essentially a "re-brander" spa that would be on par with Sunbelt, Viking, HydroSpa, etc.  Most of these have limited, often dated-looking shells and the "customizers" usually add their own jets to them (this also means that high-end quality control status like ISO9001 for leak testing is something you WILL NOT see on that level of spa).  They have their place in the market and that place is UNDER the $5K price tag.  As long as you are considering one of theirs UNDER that line, I'd say go for it.  If your getting a price ANYWHERE above $5K, it's 100% profit for the "customizer" and there is little guarantee of an individuals work.

On the high end, you have Hot Springs and Dimension One.  Both great, nice spas for those shopping in the "over $10K price range.  VERY HIGH Quality control product, excellent support system of dealers, etc  but you DO pay a price for it.

The majority of "upper-end Spa buyers are shopping in the $6K to $8K price range.  There are a LOT of tubs in that market.  You can get low end Hot Springs or a higher-end Caldera.  They are BOTH made by the EXACT same company, Watkins.  Others to consider in that "sweet spot" price range are Marquis, Artic, Jacuzzi/Sundance and a host of others.  Each will give you different things.  Wet test (if you can) and that will lead you in the right direction FOR YOU.

PS - Not a dealer. Just an owner and a common nuecense (sp?) on this board from time to time.

[Brewman]

I personally don't shop for stuff based on what their factory photos look like. I seriously doubt you'd like to see pictures of many of the factories you buy products from every day.  Ever shop at Wal Mart?  The factory conditions at the places some of those products come from are pretty shocking. I know there are people that see that stuff and say "I'll never shop there again!"...but I've just never been one of those guys.

I don't particularly care if the factory my hot tub was made in looks like a barn, or like an office building...so long as the product they make is a good one.  I was concerned that someone said Phoenix was going out of business (I thought East_Spa_TX was trying to assure me that they weren't, I didn't immediately realize he was just trying to show me how much prettier the Hot Springs factory is than theirs).  I suppose I'll have to learn to read the usernames around here and realize who the salesmen are.  

The Phoenix plant has had at least one bad fire due to their mis handling of hazardous materials.  And leaving all those spas outside in the hot sun is a terrible thing to do to them.  There was some thread or other a few weeks back speculating that they are in financial trouble.  Rumor or not, I have no idea.

But don't be fooled into thinking that Phoenix is in the same league as the other names like Jacuzzi, Sundance, Hot Springs, etc...

Terminator may be a spa dealer, but he's totally credible and wouldn't jack you around just to put you off any particular brand unless he thought there was good reason.  

In this case, do take a good look at those factory photos- you might not consider them to be indicitave of the quality of the company, but you probably should.

[anne]

The guy I bought my Arctic from decided to switch to Phoenix spas a few months later. He told me "The price point is a lot better, and it is easier to sell spas to people at a lower price than to explain to them why another brand is better quality." I'm not kidding.

Now he appears to be out of business.

So sad......

Anyway, my uncle has a D1 Californian; has had it at least 5-6 years, and loves it, never had any problems with it. I wet tested them, and was pretty impressed, but they were not quite right for me.  

[Vanguard]

I personally don't shop for stuff based on what their factory photos look like. I seriously doubt you'd like to see pictures of many of the factories you buy products from every day.  Ever shop at Wal Mart?  The factory conditions at the places some of those products come from are pretty shocking. I know there are people that see that stuff and say "I'll never shop there again!"...but I've just never been one of those guys.

I don't particularly care if the factory my hot tub was made in looks like a barn, or like an office building...so long as the product they make is a good one.  I was concerned that someone said Phoenix was going out of business (I thought East_Spa_TX was trying to assure me that they weren't, I didn't immediately realize he was just trying to show me how much prettier the Hot Springs factory is than theirs).  I suppose I'll have to learn to read the usernames around here and realize who the salesmen are.  

Other than hot tub dealers interested in bashing their competition, I haven't read or heard any consumer reports saying anything terrible about any of the several brands I'm looking at.  They all have 5 star ratings at Pool and Spa...so that's a good sign, right?  It's not like I'm shopping at Costco here, I'm choosing from what are supposedly some good brands with long histories and visiting them at the dealers in my area.

So far I've visited Arctic, Caldera, Sundance, Phoenix, Jacuzzi and Hot Springs dealers (I feel like I left one out). I still have to go see Marquis and D1 thanks to some recommendations I've read from people here.  When I pick a few I like from that list...I'm going to wet test a bunch of them and buy the one that feels the best....also thanks to some advice I've read online.

Definitely looking for opinions from any owners of the aforementioned tubs. I've heard a few so far and those have been very helpful.

First of all, let me defend Terminator.  He is not a bashing type salesperson.  He is upfront and honest with everyone.  That is just his way of warning you.

Phoenix has a bad reputation in the industry.  I would stay away.

The Five Star ratings you refer to from PoolandSpa.com is not any kind of a sign.  All that means is the manufacturer paid for the bill for their rating this year.  It is solely a marketing gimmick.  Some have said extortion.  These ratings are a sham.

There are rumors that Phoenix may be going out of business.  There were rumors before that Hydro Spa was about to declare bankruptcy - and then they did.  Right now, the spa industry, as a whole, is way way down.  So, some of the smaller, less capitalized, lower quality companies are not going to make it.  It is possible that Phoenix fits into that category.  In this climate, it is best to stick with the leaders because you know they'll weather the storm and still be there when the industry picks back up.

[Vanguard]

Does the remote give a digital reading of actual spa water temp ( unlike the control panel ) That alone would make it worth while for me... I am crazy like that.. lol... It also sounds great that you can control the speed of the color wheel... I think I will have to stop by the dealership and look into it.  I wonder if there is someplace that sells them online?? :-/

As mentioned before, you can change some jumper settings to show actual temperature.  When you do that, the remote will show actual temperature as well.  It doesn't do that before.  I think you'd have a hard time finding it online.  Hot Spring is pretty averse to its dealers doing business online - primarily for service reasons.  So, you really don't see their dealers doing any kind of sales online.   Your dealer is your best bet.

[Vanguard]

Really? That's not good because they had several of my favorites there. Was this something that was an actual news story or just whispers in the wind?


So...if you have that remote, is there any reason you'd need to access the side panel at all? I wonder why the salesguy didn't tell me about that. He did show me the jet controls and stuff that were mounted on the top of the tub, but told me that you needed to get to the main panel and suggested an opening in my deck (it's not an impossibility, it's just not a preference).

You would still need a way to access it for service down the road, so you would need some sort of removable panel on your deck.  That is done regularly for all spas.  Even spas with a top side control still have equipment that you will eventually need to access so you cannot permanently block the equipment compartment.  

However, for daily use, if you have the remote, you would not need to see the panel.  A lot of people will keep the spa up just high enough to see the control panel.  

[Josh]

I hope you don't think I'm a dealer! I started shopping for the first time 2-3 weeks ago for my first hot tub, and after wet testing Hot Springs, Tiger River, Sundance, Dynasty, d-1, Caldera, Leisure bay and Vita and looking at Jacuzzi, I decided on a Caldera, being delivered tomorrow.

No, I was referring to the dealers that try to tell you not to buy one brand because it's shady, or shoddy, or doesn't have good repair techs, or isn't as high quality....compared to theirs.  I've been meeting a lot of them this week, then I go to the next store...and meet a new one that tells me the exact same story about the brand I just looked at.  I quoted your post in my last reply, but I was just talking about the factory pictures. I wouldn't really compare some digital snapshots some competing dealer snapped of one factory to the PR photos taken at another one and put any weight in that.  It's the same thing as the Arctic guys who said Hot Springs hot tubs are garbage and cost 5 times as much to heat and clean as their tubs. I didn't believe any of that either.

These Forums have helped in my decision so much, but the biggest help by far was WET TESTING!!!! In fact, I tested a few models several times to help with the decision.

Good luck in your search!!!!!

Thanks. I find that there are a lot of really helpful people here, including the dealers that have chimed in. I'm definitely wet testing this weekend.

[Josh]

Josh - It's good to see your posting getting the attention is deserves.  Out of those that you listed in your initial post, here is my opinion (i know, everyone has one)... The Caldera is going to give you the "most for your money".  Depending on the market you are in, the dealers may or may not be as aggressive on pricing as they need to be.  This board can help you narrow down what a "fair" price would be for ANY tub.

Thanks for your opinion, I really appreciate all the personal rankings you laid out there. After I wet test a bunch towards the end of the week, I'll be posting my favorites and try to get some opinions here.  I also looked at LA Spas today, they were pretty nice too.  They were right in what you called "the sweet spot" pricewise.

The Phoenix plant has had at least one bad fire due to their mis handling of hazardous materials.  And leaving all those spas outside in the hot sun is a terrible thing to do to them.  There was some thread or other a few weeks back speculating that they are in financial trouble.  Rumor or not, I have no idea.

But don't be fooled into thinking that Phoenix is in the same league as the other names like Jacuzzi, Sundance, Hot Springs, etc...

Terminator may be a spa dealer, but he's totally credible and wouldn't jack you around just to put you off any particular brand unless he thought there was good reason.  

In this case, do take a good look at those factory photos- you might not consider them to be indicitave of the quality of the company, but you probably should.

I hear ya.  I've talked to a few owners (there are some people on Craigslist locally selling them) they seem to love the things.  I didn't know they weren't considered in the same leauge as some of the other brands, but it's definitely good info.  It's a shame, because they were some of the best looking tubs, with the most jets and some really cool water features (something I thought would be great for parties).

The guy I bought my Arctic from decided to switch to Phoenix spas a few months later. He told me "The price point is a lot better, and it is easier to sell spas to people at a lower price than to explain to them why another brand is better quality." I'm not kidding.

Now he appears to be out of business.

So sad......

Anyway, my uncle has a D1 Californian; has had it at least 5-6 years, and loves it, never had any problems with it. I wet tested them, and was pretty impressed, but they were not quite right for me.  

I'm going to see the D1s sometime soon (not sure if I'll make it tomorrow or if it'll be on the weekend.)

The Five Star ratings you refer to from PoolandSpa.com is not any kind of a sign.  All that means is the manufacturer paid for the bill for their rating this year.  It is solely a marketing gimmick.  Some have said extortion.  These ratings are a sham.

Is there a rating system out there I should trust?  Perhaps a third party ranking website or consumer reports or something?   Every brand I've been looking at (Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Arctic, Jacuzzi...etc, they all have the 5 star rating.  If what you're saying is true and all those ratings are a sham, I'd be interested in getting some pointers towards the good ratings.

[Josh]

You would still need a way to access it for service down the road, so you would need some sort of removable panel on your deck.  That is done regularly for all spas.  Even spas with a top side control still have equipment that you will eventually need to access so you cannot permanently block the equipment compartment.  

However, for daily use, if you have the remote, you would not need to see the panel.  A lot of people will keep the spa up just high enough to see the control panel.  

My deck is elevated about 4 feet off the ground and the tub is mounted flush on a platform sunken in cement that is about 3 feet from the dirt.  The tub ends up being near flush with the top of the deck, so while this configuration allows me access to the side panel for repairs or draining.....the control panel would ideally be on top.  I don't like crawling under there unless I really have to.  

This is the main reason why I havent' really been looking at spas with built in stereos, TVs or anything that needs to be controlled from the side.  It's not completely out of the question to cut a hole in the side of the deck so I could enjoy those features....but I'd rather not if I don't have to.

[Vanguard]

Hot Spring has their new SpAudio Cast.  You can plug your Ipod, stereo, tv, whatever into it.  It wirelessly transmits to your spa.  No need for a stereo at your spa.  Pretty cool set up.

As long as you can get access to your equipment, you'll be fine.

[Vanguard]

Is there a rating system out there I should trust?  Perhaps a third party ranking website or consumer reports or something?   Every brand I've been looking at (Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Arctic, Jacuzzi...etc, they all have the 5 star rating.  If what you're saying is true and all those ratings are a sham, I'd be interested in getting some pointers towards the good ratings.

This is unfortunate, but not really.

One is the SpaSearch.org certification.  Mfgs have to meet certain standards to be certified.  It is not a ranking, just a certification.  

The best is the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF).  They certify numerous things on the spa and then certify the entire spa.  Their NSF Protocol P181 sets certain standards.  To date, only Hot Spring and Tiger River have received the certification.  Not sure why others haven't.  

The NSF is totally independent and unbiased.

[Josh]

Hot Spring has their new SpAudio Cast.  You can plug your Ipod, stereo, tv, whatever into it.  It wirelessly transmits to your spa.  No need for a stereo at your spa.  Pretty cool set up.

As long as you can get access to your equipment, you'll be fine.

Saw that at the Hot Springs dealer and I was really impressed with that feature. They didn't have it hooked up so I could actually listen to it or see how far away it worked from, but it certainly seemed cool.

This is unfortunate, but not really.

One is the SpaSearch.org certification.  Mfgs have to meet certain standards to be certified.  It is not a ranking, just a certification.  

The best is the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF).  They certify numerous things on the spa and then certify the entire spa.  Their NSF Protocol P181 sets certain standards.  To date, only Hot Spring and Tiger River have received the certification.  Not sure why others haven't.  

The NSF is totally independent and unbiased.

The guy at Hot Springs actually showed me the certification, but he said it was for the cleanliness of the water in the tub (the 5 filters make it very chemical friendly).  I liked the LA Spas filters even more, because you can machine wash them (they're removeable cloth fiber covers draped over a plastic housing).

Anyway....I'm still interested in hearing all sorts of opinions on quality and features, but here's a question I haven't asked yet.  This is one I'm very interested in hearing a dealer opinion on actually.  


So...what's the market price for the:
Hot Springs Vista or Grandee?
Jacuzzi 480
Sundance Cameo
Phoenix Sorrento
Arctic Klondiker or Frontier
LA Springs Heet

And as a follow up, what's the best deal I might be able to get?  Is there a particular time of year that's best?

[Hot Tub Guru]

I can answer any questions reguarding Arctic Spas.  This is the only spa I have ever sold in the 8 years of my adventure.  I have a store in Breckenridge, CO and even at 9000 plus feet I still get referal letters on the energy efficeny.  

One customer just gave me a whole year of his energy bill.  9 months they used less energy.  Of the 3 months that he used more one month was a 1% increase another was 8% and the third was 31% (however they were out of town for 2 1/2 weeks the month the year before).  

Michael

[wmccall]

Wow...so many replies here. This place is certainly hopping compared to the other forums I've visited.

I haven't real all the replies here yet, but I don't think we've ever had an actual Pheonix Spa owner here.  I wonder if anyone has posted the photos of their factory in this thread yet.  They are somewhat infamous by association.  The bible didn't fortell, as far asI know, that the Anti-christ would come to earth in the form of a spa salesman who rebrands Phoenix Spas and then trashes the rest of the industry and anyone who opposes him with all the charm of a rabid dog.

[East_TX_Spa]

I wouldn't really compare some digital snapshots some competing dealer snapped of one factory to the PR photos taken at another one and put any weight in that.

There is a glut of information regarding those pictures going back several years on this and other spa-related forums.  When I first saw those pictures posted, it piqued my curiosity and prompted me to explore further into the story.  It turned out to be a gateway to Hell and has taken years off of my life.

I posted them as a not-too-subtle warning to you.  If you choose to see it as an attempt on my part to influence you towards my brand of spa, I could simply care less as there is no profit in it for me.

If you choose not to see that the quality of the product is a result of the quality of the process, then I wish you well.

Terminator