Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: dazedandconfused on June 02, 2004, 02:25:26 pm

Title: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: dazedandconfused on June 02, 2004, 02:25:26 pm
I just saw the DVD for thermospas.  It was a great marketing tool!  The marketing folks at a spa manufacturer could sell ice to eskimos!   ;D

Anyway, I have read all the negative critism on these and other forums about monthly running costs, purchase costs, service, etc.  

I think their insulation method is adequate for me environment but probably not the best for all you Northerners but ...

1) They say ants and critters eat and make nests in the full foam spas.  IS this true?  I can only imagine the critters that can live in an unfoamed spa like a thermospa.

2) They say leaks are a costly repair (searching and digging in the foam) in a fully foamed spa.  Arent leaks covered under warranty thru HS, SD, etc?  Also, outside of a warranty, is it really hard to find and fix leaks?  Is your spa's foam destroyed during the 'digging' process?

3) What are the benefits of a Thermospa over the competition?

4 and last) Can you even wet test a thermospa since they sell factory direct, ie, no show rooms?

Thanks
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Brewman on June 02, 2004, 02:44:38 pm
There is no winner in the thermo pane vs fully foamed argument.  You are right to be concerned about Thermospa.  They seem very high priced, you have to put up with a high pressure sales pitch, and you cannot wet test, which is one really good reason to pass on that brand.  Be wary of any dealer who uses negative selling.  
Yes, foam often needs to be removed to repair leaks, but it is replaced.  And yes, leaks during the warranty period should be covered.  
I know that if I need my spa serviced, my dealer is only a few miles away.  Can Thermospa make this claim?

Brewman

Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Spa_Tech on June 02, 2004, 03:43:15 pm
Quote
1) They say ants and critters eat and make nests in the full foam spas.  IS this true?  I can only imagine the critters that can live in an unfoamed spa like a thermospa.

2) They say leaks are a costly repair (searching and digging in the foam) in a fully foamed spa.  Arent leaks covered under warranty thru HS, SD, etc?  Also, outside of a warranty, is it really hard to find and fix leaks?  Is your spa's foam destroyed during the 'digging' process?

3) What are the benefits of a Thermospa over the competition?

4 and last) Can you even wet test a thermospa since they sell factory direct, ie, no show rooms?


1) This is actually more true of thermo-pane spas- since there are larger cavities in them it makes a nice dry 'house' for rodents, snakes, and varieties of stinging insects. Ants will build their homes in either type of spa.

2) The most costly repair on any spa in my opinion, would be between a major shell repair or complete replacement of the electronics. A plumbing repair can be quite expensive, but if you have a technician that knows what theyre doing it wont be as expensive as some portray it... My most costly full foam plumbing repair to date was to the tune of $485.00 including parts and labor. (Replacing a control box on many new spas starts at about $600.00 for example.) Leaks are typically covered by warranties for most major companies- if the foam is removed by a service tech, is replaced with handi-foam or other two part expanding insulation.

3) Let me think about that...No showroom, no local service representative, spas that are higher priced than similar product... Nope cant think of any benefits. Sorry.

4) No showroom = no wet test-- that is unless you can convince them to deliver a spa for you to try out over a weekend.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Spatech_tuo on June 02, 2004, 04:34:23 pm
If you're the type that likes overpaying and getting a product that is notorious for not being backed by the manufacturer then I'd say Thermospas is the one for you.

Why would anyone consider them? If you like full foam go with Hot Spring, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Marquis and Beachcomber or if you're a thermospane person look into Catalina, Coleman, Master, LA Spas, etc.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Rboehme on June 12, 2004, 03:21:41 pm
Has anyone seen the Thermospas Infomercial?

Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: dpgtech on June 13, 2004, 05:33:43 pm
I agree with spa tech t.u.o.  Go with a reputable brand with a local dealer, showroom, etc.  All of the ones he listed would suffice.  in my humble opinion most of the reputable spas are effiecient, don't get to hung up on thermo vs. full foam. there are many other features to look at and compare.  

Ants and Critters have an easier time getting into and nesting in thermopane spas.  Leaks are certainly easier to find and repair in a thermo spa vs. a full foam.  depending on how long it takes for the customer to notice or report the leak the full foam spas soak up water like crazy and waterlog the foam.  Having a good service tech can make a big difference in terms of time spent finding and fixing leak.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: doodoo on June 14, 2004, 02:39:50 pm
Saw lot's of ads during the golf tournament on the golf cahnnel two weekeneds ago. Thought to myself - if I did'nt know any better that would seem very appealing. But I do know different and would never buy or recommend that product. If ya wanna know why, see my previous post on the Thermospa sales experience.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: beachman on June 14, 2004, 06:26:22 pm
I went threw alot of forms trying to find out what kind of hottub was a good quality one, and to my surprise there was alot of negitive feedback about the thermospas, and customers said to stay away from them...
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: jeff_redden on June 17, 2004, 01:28:10 am
Wow!  Was browsing this site out of curiosity but am now forced to actually enter a reply to this thread.  Obviosuly this site is designed to help Watkins sales, but outright lying deserves a response.
  First, Mr. DooDoo...Thermospas does not sell tubs in your location, Ontario Canada so I'm surious how you went through such a dreadful experience.  Since you have so many posts on here I'm guessing you are not in fact a consumer, but actually a dealer so I guess that answers the question.
  In regards to Dazedandconfused's questions, here are some answers:
    Bugs and mice may enter any tub from any manufacturer.  The difference between a full-foam design and a thermopane design is that you can easily get rid of the bugs/mice in a thermopane design.  In a full-foam tub the only way you could be confident that all of the bugs/mice are gone is to remove all of the foam.  For instance if a colony of ants moved in, you could set traps inside a thermopane design and actually check inside everyday to see if they were still there.  In a full-foam design, if you ripped out half the foam they might still be in the other half...so it all has to come out.
  Leaks in a full foam design can be quite difficult to locate.  The down time involved is obviously a hastle but what's really scary is how many dealers replace the foam they've removed.  What the average customer forgets about is the amount of weight a hot-tub shell has to support.  At 8 pounds per gallon a 300 gallon spa has 2400 pounds of water in it.  Sadly many manufacturers...and every full-foam manufacuter I've ever seen....rely on the foam to create a pedestal under the shell to support all of the weight.  So...the foam is not only being used as insulation it is also being used as structural foam.  And when the dealer comes out and takes spray-cans from Home Depot to replace the removed foam...or what is more common just stuffs fiberglass batted insulation inside...the structural support is obviously compromised.  So...when the tub starts to develop cracks in the shell it's no mystery what happened.
  Benefits of a Thermospa?  Local support that will always be there.  To debunk the greatest myth that dealers on the web try to spread, with Thermospas you have a support base that will never change.  Ask the dealers you've spoken to what would happen if they went bankrupt?  Or ask them what happens if they decide to switch brands (a very common occurence in this industry so that dealers don't have to perform service).  The next benefit would be quality design and engineering.  A Thermospa shell has more fiberglass backing than any other tub you'll ever look at...so foam support isn't needed.  Since cabinets/plumbing/equipment all pretty much weigh the same a great way to qucikly know how thick a shell is is too look at the dry-weight of a spa.  Dry-weight of a 4 person Thermospa...950 pounds or more.  Compare that to other manufacturers.  The engineering and design has recently won two impressive awards: The Inspire Award from the National Spa And Pool Institute for innovation and leadership within the industry, and the only spa company ever to receive a  Commendation from the Arthrits Foundation (a non-profit group) see their .org website for info.  So, if quality engineering/construction, effective therapy and reliable customer support are important to you, those are the benefits.
  And finally the question of wet-testing.  No, you cannot wet-test a Thermospa.  But how can you be 100% positive that any tub you wet-test at a dealer will be identical in performance to the tub you actually receive?  If you were a dealer wouldn't you go out of your way to make sure the tubs in your showroom performed as impressively as possible even though it may not be a reflection of what the customer will actually receive?  Also, with Thermospa we are talking about a different level of spa...just as I don't need to test-drive a Ferrari to know it will be impressive, there's no need to wet-test a Thermospa to know it will be perfection.
 So..sorry about the rant, but dealers take too many liberties with what they write on these websites and I had to reply.  It's funny how DooDoo slams his fictitious Thermospa rep for selling against other companies like that's distateful while as he's typing his description that's exactly what he's doing!
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Spatech_tuo on June 17, 2004, 01:32:07 am
That last post is so far from reality I won't even waste the time critiquing it.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Mendocino101 on June 17, 2004, 02:14:04 am
Jeff you wrote.....

"And finally the question of wet-testing.  No, you cannot wet-test a Thermospa.  But how can you be 100% positive that any tub you wet-test at a dealer will be identical in performance to the tub you actually receive?  If you were a dealer wouldn't you go out of your way to make sure the tubs in your showroom performed as impressively as possible even though it may not be a reflection of what the customer will actually receive?  Also, with Thermospa we are talking about a different level of spa...just as I don't need to test-drive a Ferrari to know it will be impressive, there's no need to wet-test a Thermospa to know it will be perfection."


You know that old song "things that make you hummmm"...perhaps that might be the least credible and one of the silliest things I have read on a web site...dealers basically doctoring their tubs to wet test better...a bold accusation to make and something I have never even heard the faintest of whispers about before...
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: jeff_redden on June 17, 2004, 02:40:33 am
  Ok Mendocino...dealers never, ever, ever misrepresent their product or lie...yeah, right.
 Not all of them do of course, but I think the wet-test can be manipulated in so many ways that it usually is worthless.  For instance...the sales-rep discretely adjusting diverter valves to increase pressure where his customers are sitting, but not telling them that he's decreasing pressure in other areas.  Or...the air intakes for bubbling systems/water jets pulling in the warm air in the show room is obviously not quite the same as how the tub will perform when it's installed outside on a snowy night around freezing.
 But, yes there are dealers out there who trick out their demo tubs and if you think that doesn't ever happen I'm sure the used car salesmen love it when they see you on the lot.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Gerrym on June 17, 2004, 03:01:50 am
I reckon the number one motto when buying a spa is "if you can't wet test it, then steer clear, it is not worth the risk".
I do not understand why people but a spa without wet testing. Do you buy a bed or sofa without testing them for comfort?
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 17, 2004, 03:31:20 am
As far as the full foam vs. pane insulation, both have their pros and cons.  You should look at a lot more than just that when choosing a tub.

Full foam can become a nightmare to fix, and any dealer that tells you their tubs never leak is a liar.  Thermo tubs are easier to fix, and although many companies have converted to this style recently, have their drawbacks as well.

Both types insulate well if it's from a good company that does it "right", no matter which route they take.

I live in Chicago and the non-foam tubs insulate here just fine... as do full foam tubs.

As far as Thermospas, they have local servicemen in every area they sell in, so when a competitor says "what about service?, Who's gonna fix it?",  the answer is the Thermospas employee that lives across town.  A lot of competitors use that as a way to "overcome an objection" when a customer mentions Thermospas...  but there ARE local servicemen.

Spa dealers also scream "you can't wet test you can't wet test" when you mention Thermospas... they're trained to say that.  Sure, it's totally true, and it's a great thing to be able to wet test, but I've sold HUNDREDS of tubs to people who have never wet tested, and they all love their tubs.  

There's a lot of people who go to a dealer and have the option to wet test, and refuse it anyway. They don't want to hop into a tub that 50 others have already been in that morning, or they are too "shy" to do it!  :-[

Brewman says: "Be wary of any dealer who uses negative selling."  There's a LOT of that going on against Thermospas, not only in dealer showrooms, but on THIS page.  It's sad some dealers have to cut down the competition to sell a tub, instead of pump the benefits of their own products.

For some reason, Spatech t.u.o. roams the industry message boards with a vengeance posting all types of negative things about Thermospas.  I wish you would educate yourself a bit about them, because you post hearsay and your statements are so far from what a Thermospas is all about.  You really need to learn more about the company and the Thermospas  tubs...  PLEASE!

I don't mean to sound rude, apologies in advance, but it's obvious you truly have no clue about how the tubs are made and the dedication to quality that goes into them.  

Someone mentioned Thermospas "high pressure salesman"... trust me, a LOT of spa salesman are high pressure (not the good ones though), and they sure don't all work for Thermospas.  You'll find them in dealerships across the country, selling all types of spas... and pools... and cars... and etc etc.  Unfortunately, the small minority hurt the majority of us.

Thermospas are higher priced than some tubs, and lower priced than others.  In any case it's a high quality product with some of the longest warranties in the industry.

(continued on next post)
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 17, 2004, 03:31:38 am
(told ya so!)

Thermospas was just given an award from the National Spa and Pool Institute that states they did more to "move the industry forward" than any other spa manufacturer. This award was voted on by industry insiders, the officers of OTHER spa manufaturing companies.

Here's a quote from the NSPI site:

Established by NSPI’s Hot Tub Council in 2003, The INSPIRE Award stands for and promotes the “Industry Nomination for Spa Promotion and Innovation, Recognizing Excellence”. The INSPIRE Award recognizes a company’s total contributions to the industry.

PURPOSE: To recognize a company whose efforts have demonstrated an overall commitment to the hot water industry, embodying an overall spirit of pride, dedication and service.

First recipient: ThermoSpas (2003).

Here's the Link, check it out:

http://www.nspi.org/industry_awards/the_inspire_award/

Thermospas is also the ONLY spa company ANYWHERE with the "Ease of Use" commendation from the National Arthritis Foundation.   NO other tub has this... and it's because of the work Tspas did modifying the spas for severely arthritic folks to use. It made them easier to get in and out of, to change the filters, to use the controls, etc etc.

Thermospas was rated by Consumer Digest as a "Best Buy", (the highest quality rating) and in the "premium" category for quality, alongside Dimension One and Master Spas. (April 2003) It ranked Hot Springs and Artesian as "midrange", along with Marquis, and ranked Sundance and others as "economy".  For the record, I think Hot Springs and Sundance should been ranked higher.

Who do you want to believe?  A Thermospas competitor on a internet forum, or the Arthritis Foundation, National Spa and Pool Institute, and Consumer Digest?

I'm not trying to say that Thermospas is the only good tub out there, nor am I saying it's the "best tub made". (although you never know!  ;) )  What I AM saying, is that it can compete with any other tub on the market in quality and value, and has thousands of happy customers to prove it.  $57 million in sales last year is a testament to its reputation.

Thermospas uses titanium heaters, non-pvc patented jet fittings, has an optional chemical delivery system so you don't have to add the chemicals, has a shell close to an inch thick, weighs hundreds of pounds more than other manufacturers tubs of the same size, offers a cover (standard on most models) that holds over 500 lbs., reversable/removable cabinet panels, Aquaflo pumps with Viton seals, your choice of seat depths, offers tubs with up to 160 jets with 6 pumps, offers bars/cabinets with Corian tops and sharper image refrigerators, a plasma screen tv, JBL stereo/CD, etc etc.... it's all TOP quality from top to bottom... and made right here in the USA!

Did I mention that not ONE shell produced since October of 2002 has delaminated (bubbles/blistering) or been reported with any cosmetic defects?    ;D  Yes... 100% perfection!

Thermospas may have the best warranty in the industry... most companies warranty their pumps/blowers/heaters for 3-5 years.  With Thermospas it's a 10 year warranty.  Shell structure is covered for 20 years, and they offer a generous trade-in policy!

Anyway, look at every tub in your area, then let the Thermospas guy come out, and make up your mind for yourself.  He'll measure your gates and fences, check your deck/patio for structural integrity, make sure you have enough "juice" electrically to power up your tub, and let you know exactly what you have to do to get ready for your tub to be delivered.  He'll spend hours answering the questions the dealer in your area might not have had the time to answer for you... except for Chas  :D , who will "make" the time for you if he doesn't have it .... then make your decision.

If nothing else, you'll have a great education on spas, and get some good ideas for your particular application.  

Z

P.S. Now, I'm going to bed... I've been reading these and other boards for almost 5 hours, and my wife thinks I'm out of my mind!
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Mendocino101 on June 17, 2004, 04:01:52 am
Jeff,

Please do not distort what I replied to... what I made mention of is your "wet test" comment.... not anything about weather a dealer may or may not lie or misrepresent their product.... now you write...

 “I think the wet-test can be manipulated in so many ways that it usually is worthless"

That is spoken exactly like someone who sells a product that cannot be wet tested.... funny thing about wet testing. It is about the one thing that 99% of the people on these boards can agree about...wet test before you buy.... also “most dealers” that I know and show rooms I have been in always help get you started, showing you how the tub operates and than will give you and who ever you are with the time to explore the spa on your own…unless of course what you mean is that they use wireless remotes to really put the stickings to those in the tub with all their deceit and manipulations…. I have never had the pleasure of having a thermo spa salesmen at my home…I have heard some interesting tales… but to be fair if I can get one out here I am going to do so…..so that I can know for myself..if the stories are true.... if the games start that I think just might…If and I truly mean if.. the movie “Tin Men” has any similarities with the sales close…. well it will make for an interesting evening… Oh by the way…I sell used cars….
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: wmccall on June 17, 2004, 06:52:44 am
Quote
(told ya so!)

Thermospas was just given an award from the National Spa and Pool Institute that states they did more !



I've just formed a new group and I'll register the name. Its called American Society of excellence in consumer spa engineering.  Who wants to buy my award, and the right to use the logo in their advertisiting?
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Tubber on June 17, 2004, 07:04:06 am
"Thermospas may have the best warranty in the industry... most companies warranty their pumps/blowers/heaters for 3-5 years.  With Thermospas it's a 10 year warranty.  Shell structure is covered for 20 years, and they offer a generous trade-in policy!"


Now sit down and read the actual warranty. It is a limitited warranty. The 20,10 and 5 year are all looking good until you get to the second sentence of every one. When it becomes pro rated. I will dig out my copy to prove this.

If Thermo Spas service is so great and we happen to have a factory in CT. How come our company has two former thermo spa service techs, who oh my gosh became certified after they started working for us. Not a requirement with Therom spa.

Sure Thermo Spas can put a jet anywhere you want and they can put 90 jets in a tubs. Thats becuase they are not ISO 9001. Pinpoint jets are of no use in a tub unless you want to feel pinpoints when your in it.


"Who do you want to believe?  A Thermospas competitor on a internet forum, or the Arthritis Foundation, National Spa and Pool Institute, and Consumer Digest? "

Thats all paid advertisement, there are no actual true ratings of Hot Tubs by any 100% impartial party.

I'd call for an in home with a Thermo Spas sales rep but I'm afraid I might be convinced or brain washed into buying one.  ::)
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Lori on June 17, 2004, 07:08:17 am
wmccall, you crack me up!  ;D

Jeff,

Sorry, but your comments on wet testing are just way off, in my opinion.  If I hadn't wet tested, I would have bought a spa that I floated around in instead of getting the therapy to the places I need it!

ALL of the dealers I visited and wet tested spas from explained the basics of operation to me.  Then they left me to my own devices.  I tried every button, twisted the face of every jet (that could be twisted), turned every diverter this way and that, in essence, I tried to use the tub as I would in my own back yard!!!

I think you are way off base on the wet testing issue.  I, for one, am glad I wet tested.  I wouldn't buy a tub that I couldn't wet test.  Floating around in a swimming pool is one thing, but in a spa, ugh!!!
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: CalicoskiesNC on June 17, 2004, 09:52:01 am
I agree w/Lori.  When we wet tested, we had a few min. with the dealer then we were left alone to play and figure out stuff without being watched.  The Jacuzzi guy left us alone for over 15min and didnt come back till we were toweling off.  The SD/SW left us in tubs by ourselves but he was still in showroom, just not hovering.  We found that being tall people we eliminated tubs we had thought we liked just becuz they were tight or had little foot room or loungers that we couldnt be comfy in.  
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: wmccall on June 17, 2004, 10:04:56 am
Quote
wmccall, you crack me up!  ;D

Jeff,

Sorry, but your comments on wet testing are just way off, in my opinion.  


Well, we didn't wet test beyond sticking our arms into the warm water and playing with the controls. We thought because we had used several spas of friends we knew what we wanted/needed.   But I will submit wet testing, where available, is the way to go.  But the idea of buying a spa site unseen seems to be the absolute definition of absurd.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Brewman on June 17, 2004, 11:19:12 am
Quote

  But the idea of buying a spa site unseen seems to be the absolute definition of absurd.


Boy did you hit the nail on the head there!  Imagine plunking down thousands of dollars on something like this blindly.  Talk about a leap of faith!
Brewman
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: jeff_redden on June 17, 2004, 11:25:45 am
   To those who have reponded, what about the difference in wet-testing a tub in a warm showroom versus how it actually performs when it's outside in the snow on a 10 degree night?  I guess everyone will reply that cold-air induction just never happens.  
  And...why is it that everyone decided to talk only about the wet-test issue?  I reponded to the topics that dazedandconfused raised but have not seen the other topics receive the same level of comment that the wet-test question did.
  And regarding the ISO9000 certification...that's is something that is bought as well!  But has nothing to do with the end performance of a product, it is has to do with the organizational style of the business.  
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Gerrym on June 17, 2004, 11:45:27 am
Quote
  To those who have reponded, what about the difference in wet-testing a tub in a warm showroom versus how it actually performs when it's outside in the snow on a 10 degree night?  I guess everyone will reply that cold-air induction just never happens.  
   And...why is it that everyone decided to talk only about the wet-test issue?  I reponded to the topics that dazedandconfused raised but have not seen the other topics receive the same level of comment that the wet-test question did.
   And regarding the ISO9000 certification...that's is something that is bought as well!  But has nothing to do with the end performance of a product, it is has to do with the organizational style of the business.  



Jeff, sorry you are wrong again. ISO 9000 cannot be bought. I agree it can cost a lot of money to gain accreditation, but there is a difference.
Title: Pardon me?
Post by: Chas on June 17, 2004, 12:08:20 pm
Jeff,

No offense buddy, but you sure need to check your facts. I have not seen a post with as many errors in it in a long long time.

Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Tubber on June 17, 2004, 12:15:57 pm
Sorry Jeff but I'm very familiar with ISO 9001. No it cannot be bought.

I noticed how you did not touch on the Warraty I mentioned being PRO RATED.

I love selling against you guys ...... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Mendocino101 on June 17, 2004, 12:28:03 pm
Hey Jeff...

Can you help me with out this one please?

You said...
"Benefits of a Thermospa?  Local support that will always be there.  To debunk the greatest myth that dealers on the web try to spread, with Thermospas you have a support base that will never change."

So what’s going on, are you saying that perhaps with your "healing spa" as it is called.... what do you jump in and live forever.... because if I read what you said. Without taking it out context that.... once you become involved with thermospas.... unlike anything else in life, things do not change...people do not move....change jobs...retire...pass on...ohh I am sorry I think you addressed that with the "healing spa"...again it might be a good product I am calling for an appointment today...you should think about some of things you are saying before touting your product as the end all of spas...a guy named Jim does the same thing and well.... it is hard for anyone to actually take him seriously as well....
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Mendocino101 on June 17, 2004, 12:32:39 pm
Hey Jeff,

I am from So Cal...so please don't tease about those cold winter nights....the thought of being in a spa, out in the snow is so inviting...were lucky if the temps ever get into the 40's on cold nights..... ;)
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Chas on June 17, 2004, 01:58:14 pm
Quote
Hey Jeff,

I am from So Cal...so please don't tease about those cold winter nights....the thought of being in a spa, out in the snow is so inviting...were lucky if the temps ever get into the 40's on cold nights..... ;)


Well, Mendocino, just be sure you're in a HotSpring, or one of the other fine tubs that recycles the heat from the jet pump - so the air going into the jets is NOT cold, even on one of those frigid 40 degree nights.

Of course, as you know, HotSpring doesn't put blowers on any of their tubs, so there is - again - no chance of blowing cold outside air into the tub.

I am building a place up in the mountains - right here in So Cal - and I'm thinking I might put a HotSpring spa in, because this place does get snow every winter! I'll let you know when we get it finished (most likely 2005) and you can come on up!


Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Spatech_tuo on June 17, 2004, 02:41:59 pm
Quote
For some reason, Spatech t.u.o. roams the industry message boards with a vengeance posting all types of negative things about Thermospas.  


I have never told anyone that I've had an issue with Thermospas. I've merely pointed out all the angry customers you seem to have. I'm not the one who creates a website to detail their problems with Thermospas. You've got customers doing that. You've got customers going out of their way to come here as well as to Dr Spa's site, to the poolandspas.com site and to the spahelp.com site to WARN others of their long drawn out problems with your company. They make it clear they want to make sure others don't fall into the predicament they find themselves in. It’s your customers, not me. I'm not going to feel guilty if I let others know that there are many posts regarding your customer service issues. On a post last week on spahelp.com I simply advised the person to do a search on all the sites for your company. You then followed that with a post telling how wonderful your company/product is and I again reposted that they should do a search (as they should do on all spa makers they're considering).

Why not try to find out why these customers are making these posts. Please don't try to tell us they are all crackpots or are lying, that won't work for you any better than it does for Jim A when he tries that route. Don't try to tell us Sundance and Hot Springs have the same issues as they sell 4 times the number of spas you have but I never see people starting websites to chronicle their issues nor do I see them making posts warning others not to buy the product they bought. They certainly have some issues but they resolve them and the customer doesn't feel a need to warn others to stay away. If someone comes here to tell us that Marquis, Hot Springs, Caldera, Beachcomber, Jacuzzi, Sundance, etc is a terrible product there are many owners that come to their defense. Where are the happy Thermospas customers? I’d expect to see them coming to the defense of your product to offset the many customers you seem to have who seem so disgruntled?




Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZzTop on June 17, 2004, 02:51:08 pm
Spatech T U O well said, I know you speak for all the regulars on this board.  Thank You!
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 18, 2004, 02:53:09 am
I can copy and paste plenty of forum responses  where Thermospas customers state they love their tubs!

These boards are frequented by dealers MUCH more than consumers.  With 800+ dealerships, Hot Springs has what, 8,000-10,000 salespeople?  Thermospas has around 100.

If 1% of those read these boards, thats 80 Hot Springs (or whoever) dealers... and um... me.   8)

In most cases, it's the dealers jumping to defend  other companies  on these boards more than "happy tubbers".  Thermospas customers are in their tub, not reading industry boards! (cliche, cliche!)  

There are THOUSANDS of happy Thermospas owners... I've said it dozens of times on the various boards.  Send me your address, and I'll send you a list of well over a hundred of them!

Not 1 person has taken me up on it.    

I've sold hundreds of Thermospas, and have had 2 people not totally satisfied.  Both have been taken care of. (no, they're not "swimming with the fishes"!)   ;D

Please don't expect us to believe that there's no complaints and/or negative websites made about Sundance and Hot Springs.  If you like I'll happily post the links... I just don't feel good about posting that type of thing... but I can if you'd like to see them.  (although I'm sure you know where they are already)

Sure, we've had our share of problems, but so has everyone else.  I won't bring up the bankruptcies and/or the recalls... it's not my style... yes, you know who you are.

Thermospas has grown from a $5 million to $57 million company in a matter of several years.  We had some growing pains, but are totally dedicated to excellence, and work as hard as anyone to please our customers.  

We make a high quality product that our customers love, and that plenty of independent rating companies have praised.  They are the SAME companies that YOU other dealers swear up and down are credible when you talk to your customers... and you know it.

Chas (and most every other Hot Springs dealer) has the Arthritis Foundation logo on his main page... does that mean he's  "full of it" too, and Hot Springs has done nothing to deserve that icon either?

Sure, our warranty is pro-rated, but what would you prefer, a 3 year warranty on your pumps/motors, (when they most likely will work fine) then NOTHING in the 4-10 year period, or a pro-rated one that helps you 7 years longer than most others?

****I've just formed a new group and I'll register the name. Its called American Society of excellence in consumer spa engineering.  Who wants to buy my award, and the right to use the logo in their advertisiting?****

Comments like this one make me laugh... sure, the Arthritis Foundation, National Spa Institute and Consumer Digest are all full of beans, right?

Go back and look at the things I wrote about what Thermospas offers.  All top quality...

If those were available on YOUR tub, you'd be proud of it to... and well deservingly.  If you offer the same or similar now, you're already "touting it" daily.
   
Come on guys, howbout some mutual respect?  

Z

Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: wmccall on June 18, 2004, 07:38:24 am
"Come on guys, howbout some mutual respect? "

Respect, there is something you can teach your sales force.  I think there is still a mark on my door from where his ass hit on the way out.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Mendocino101 on June 18, 2004, 10:04:10 am
"Come on guys, howbout some mutual respect? "

you come in here in kind of a boastful way....making some questionable claims about your product...that as it is suffers from image problem to began with and with you and your buddy....you seem to confirm what people think thermo spas or at least thier sales people are all about....mutual respect is just that mutual...maybe there a zen thing we can all do.... ;)...no really nick good luck to you... :D...what part of the country are you in.....
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Spatech_tuo on June 18, 2004, 10:06:36 am
Quote
Please don't expect us to believe that there's no complaints and/or negative websites made about Sundance and Hot Springs.  If you like I'll happily post the links... I just don't feel good about posting that type of thing...



I've never seen someone go out of their way to create a website to chronicle their unhappiness with Sundance or Hot Springs. I've only seen that done by customers of a couple brands (again, don't go trying to blame me for what your customers do). Since you don't feel it is right to post these site addresses please feel free to send me a personal message so I can visit these sites you say exist. I also don't see people going out there way to warn people to stay away from spa companies like Sundance and Hot Springs as they seem to take care of people when they have issues. Maybe you in time can create a similar reputation.

I'll let your customers continue to come to these sites and speak for the quality of your product. However, if someone comes to one of these sites asking what experiences people have had I may advice they do a search to find what others have to say.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: seajay on June 18, 2004, 06:28:03 pm
You  know I read all of this stuff and you guys and girls spend way to much time at your computers and not enough time in your tubs. I have a Concord Elite III and am very happy with it have had no issues getting it running or serviced . My first months electric bill was up $16.00 and we basically use it every day. As for the salesmen who represented TSpa.....he was a great guy, no pressure at all. I would buy from him again. I also researched all of the other brands at local dealers and found that construction, components, warranty, etc and everything else were either comaprable or better. As far as the cost of the unit compared to all of the others with similar options TSpas was very comparable.  Friends of mine own other brands and I have been in each of them, HS,Jacuzzi,SD,Vita and I still chose the TSpas. I have never seen people who dwell on and spend so much time trying to convince other people that the competition sucks. What happens when you buy a Car or House you must be beside yourself. I am in the sales profession and never spend a minute slamming the competition its not right and a waste of my time. You need to talk about your product and what its benefits are. If you have to bash the cometiton I always say your defending something or hiding something. Companies wouldn't be in business if they were as bad as you guy say. That all folks! I am going  for a beer and soak...... ;)
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: RealShopper_Really on June 18, 2004, 08:13:52 pm
I have a Concord Elite III and am very happy with it have had no issues getting it running or serviced . My first months electric bill was up $16.00 and we basically use it every day. You believe me, don't you?

As for the salesmen who represented TSpa.....he was a great guy, no pressure at all, Especially once I told him I would gladly write the check for $17,000 up front, on the spot. I would buy from him again, if I had any money left.

I also researched all of the other brands at local dealers and found that construction, components, warranty, etc and everything else were either comaprable or better. Well, except for a few things...

As far as the cost of the unit compared to all of the others with similar options TSpas was very comparable.  Friends of mine own other brands and I have been in each of them, HS,Jacuzzi,SD,Vita and I still chose the TSpas. You see, I belong to a spa-owners club - so I can sample any tub made.

I have never seen people who dwell on and spend so much time trying to convince other people that the competition sucks. Nor have I seen any other time when people could so easily go on a web site and pretend to be a happy T spa owner, say whatever sounds good, and expect people to believe that I am who I say I am, and that I really do have a nice hot T spa sitting at home, trouble-free - and that even though I am a "newbie," with only a couple of posts to my credit, they should take me at my word.










Tongue-in-cheek, but I hope I made the point.
(Chas)


Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Rboehme on June 18, 2004, 08:24:32 pm
This thread is not doing the spa industry any good. Reading it from a customers perspective it has to look like a "your spa is worse than my spa argument."

I have not personally seen a thermospa. I can not give a customer any real advise on it. I can only tell a customer what I think about the spa from what I have seen from thier website and commercials.

As far as customers posting on the boards and creating websites about thier unhappyness with thier thermo-spa, I can see why there would be more of them than with other brands. You see other brands have dealers that the customer can personally go into to complain. I can assure you ALL brands have at least some unhappy customers. Thermo spa owners who are unsatisfied really only have the internet to vent thier frustration.  

There are customers of all brands of spas that are unsatisfied. That being said, they are a small minority.

The majority of spa owners are very happy, relaxed people.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 19, 2004, 01:17:15 am
LOL... Chas, as soon as I read the 1st sentence of "Seajay's" post I saw your response coming...  and I  would have thought/said/posted the same way you did.

For what it's worth, and you can believe me or not, I have NO idea who he is.  It sure does look "odd" though, and I got a chuckle from it.  The "mod" here can tell though... from his IP address.

***.you seem to confirm what people think thermo spas or at least thier sales people are all about....***

I don't really know what you mean by that statement.  

All you should get from any of my posts on any of the various boards is that I work for Thermospas, (I've NEVER hidden it) I believe in the company and the quality of their engineering, and am willing to discuss the pros/cons in a professional manner without having to cut down other companies to do it.

I don't come off as pushy, rude, or unprofessional. What is it Mendocino, that I "confirm"?

To answer Spatech, I'm in the Midwest...

I'd like to open the floor to some questions about Thermospas for those of you, like someone said above, who know nothing beside what you've read here.  Maybe some specific questions/answers will help?

Z
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 19, 2004, 01:33:28 am
Ok... an addendum to my post last post.    

I just did a "search" on our friend "Seajay", and he posted on May 25th, long before I even registered here that he bought a Thermospas Concord.  

Boy am I biting my tongue!!!!   :-X

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1085519337;start=2

:-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X    ;)

Z
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Mendocino101 on June 19, 2004, 01:50:25 am
Nick....

You seem like alright guy and I hope that you did get the point I was trying to make about the "Zen type thing” I was trying make peace in a light hearted way...I think you might being getting the brunt from your "buddy" Jeff’s comments as it appeared you came in here together and he starting making some bold and also very questionable statements...I think it is great to be proud of what you sell...but if you make the kind of statements he made you will be challenged by others with a different point of view...but as I mentioned before and in my posts...I would welcome the chance to have a rep out to my house....how ever after calling I found out you do not have one near me...I have a long retail background and did some in home selling and from what I understand...and again to be fair it is only things I have read and heard....There is some "tin man" type of closing with your product...or so the rumor goes...again I say to you good luck...and always treat those with the same respect you wish to receive.....peace.....
;)
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: wmccall on June 19, 2004, 11:04:26 am
From Arthritis.org

In support of the Arthritis Foundation’s mission, ThermoSpas agreed to donate $50 from the sale of each Healing Spa to the Arthritis Foundation.


In Support of Buffalo Wing eating,  Columbuswings.com will gladly accept $40 for each spa sale in exchange for our recommendation of your spa in relieving the stress created by over eating Atomic wings. and in return, I'll endorse your product.  We will use this donation to make available acid reducers and handi-wipes at all Wing restaurants.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Chas on June 19, 2004, 11:25:12 am
Quote
From Columbuswings.com :

In Support of Buffalo Wing eating,  Columbuswings.com will gladly accept $40 for each spa sale in exchange for our recommendation of your spa in relieving the stress created by over eating Atomic wings. and in return, I'll endorse your product.  We will use this donation to make available acid reducers and handi-wipes at all Wing restaurants.


Well, I'm sorry, but if BuffaloWings.com can't get people to eat their wings based solely on how good those wings are, or just by building a reputation in the community for great after-gorging service ...
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 19, 2004, 11:40:37 am
If that's the case, you might as well pull that "Hot Springs supports  the Arthritis Foundation" ADVERTISEMENT off of the main page of YOUR website Chas.  You BOUGHT the rights to have it.

It's funny how you guys do the same thing, but it's ok...

I've spent hours going out of my way to open lines of communications with you guys, but obviously your ignorance won't allow it.  I should know better than to try and communicate with a handful of folks who can only sell tubs by berating the competition...  which I'm sure is all you know how to do, based on your responses here.  

The only thing I see most of you building here is a reputation that you're a bunch of bickering old fools who are unable to carry on a discussion.

Z
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Chas on June 19, 2004, 12:31:37 pm
Z - wow, take a breath  :)

Yes, HotSpring is a corporate sponsor for the National Arthritis Foundation. And that means that we give lots of money to them - on a donation basis - and they in turn help us understand how to make tubs that do good things for people with all sorts of joint pain problems, including simply getting old.

They also have helped us design our handles and controls to be more easily manipulated by hands with weak grip strength. It's a minor thing, unless you're the one with weak grip strength or joint pain.

It's not an endorsement, and it's not a paid advertisement, unless you want to consider it a paid advertisement for the NAF, letting people know that they exist and that they are a good source of info, support and help if you are a sufferer. But if you want to call it a paid advertisement for the NAF, then keep in mind who's paying whom.



Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: spahappy on June 19, 2004, 04:12:52 pm
Quote
If that's the case, you might as well pull that "Hot Springs supports  the Arthritis Foundation" ADVERTISEMENT off of the main page of YOUR website Chas.  You BOUGHT the rights to have it.

It's funny how you guys do the same thing, but it's ok...

I've spent hours going out of my way to open lines of communications with you guys, but obviously your ignorance won't allow it.  I should know better than to try and communicate with a handful of folks who can only sell tubs by berating the competition...  which I'm sure is all you know how to do, based on your responses here.  

The only thing I see most of you building here is a reputation that you're a bunch of bickering old fools who are unable to carry on a discussion.

Z

Now now boys lets play nice. Znick you are comitted to the Spa brand you sell and thats great. I'm sure your finding out others, dealers and buyers on the board are as well.
I have no issue with you or Thermo Spa, I do however think that Jeffs posts may have put people on the defensive rght away.
I would like to point out that many new soon to be buyers are surfing this site and all this bickering back and forth does the spa industry no good at all.
I have always tried to be a positive seller. However  after reading one of Steves posts a while back it hit me. I was still selling Colemans thermol-lock insulation in a way that defended what my competors were saying was wrong about it. Anyway there's times when it must be addressed, but I find concentrating more on all the positive ways the spa will change your life is a much better sales approach.
Coleman Spas are rarely in anybody on this forums top 5 or 6 and that doesn't bother me. I've been selling them for 10 years and they are my #1 pick. Every spa brand out there has come a long way with quality and dependability issues in the last decade. We've all had our lemmons.
For what it's worth I hope you stay on the board. Things have been lively for the last few days!
                                   Spahappy
(my spell check has been disabeled so now everyone can see how bad my spelling is. Thankfully I talk for a living!}
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: wmccall on June 19, 2004, 05:13:08 pm
Ooops sorry Chas, I was poking fun at Thermospa suggesting that their endorsement by the arthritis foundation was purchased by donations.  I pulled that off their website.  

I pissed Chas off, I'm out of this conversation.


No offense meant Chas.
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: ZNICK on June 19, 2004, 09:29:22 pm
Sorry Chas?  Howbout sorry Z?  Why do you find it SO important to come here and continously insult me?   :'(

If you look back at any of my posts on any board you'll find I have NEVER said anything negative about a Hot Springs. (I assume you're a dealer)  I like HS... it's a great tub.   Heck, you won't find any posts of mine being negative towards ANY tub.  If I don't like one, I don't say anything... momma taught me that in kindergarten!

I'm sure it's pretty obvious I was "hot" when I posted my last comments.  I was running out the door to an appointment around 90 miles from home, (sold a TS "Lexington Standard"  ;D ) and didn't have the time to reread before posting.  In hindsite, I shouldn't have hit the "post" button at all, flames aren't my style.

If I offended anyone, my apologies.  

Anyway, about the Arthritis Foundation.  We are in no way ENDORSED by them, but one of our spas carries the "Ease of Use Commendation".  It's the only spa in production by any company that holds this honor.

Let me explain how this came to be...

Recognizing the need for easy-to-use products, packaging, and services, the Arthritis Foundation created its ``Ease of Use'' commendation program. The Healing Spa from ThermoSpas is the first hot tub ever to be awarded the Ease of Use Commendation.

When ThermoSpas began designing this unique spa, we went to the Arthritis Foundation for their input.

First, we questioned a panel of experts from the Foundation with arthritis.  A large group was brought to our factory where they tested all of our spa models.  They found that although pleasant, a lot would have to be modified to make the "perfect" spa for people stricken with this condition.  

Things that most of us take for granted, like removing a filter, stepping from a typical spa step into the tub, rotating a control, going from a sitting to standing position within the tub, and many others were next to impossible for some within this group.

The answers from this panel showed us just where we needed to improve/change...  we took the answers they provided and we designed The Healing Spa to include all of their recommendations.

ThermoSpas worked directly with The Arthritis Foundation to design this innovative spa... from the ground up.  Certainly some of you know how much $ and time go into designing a totally new product from the ground up.

We designed The Healing Spa to satisfy the requirements of an unprecedented panel of volunteers from the Foundation - all with severe arthritis themselves. We answered their needs for easy access, entry and exit safety, graspable controls, uncomplicated maintenance and much more.

As a result of this collaborative effort, The Healing Spa was awarded the Arthritis Foundation's prestigious Ease of Use Commendation.  

Not only did we earn the commendation, but because of our dedication we were also given the "Corporate Hero Award" from them...

No, they certainly don't "endorse us"... but we've worked hand in hand with them (at considerable expense to us) to help a group with special needs, and we're proud of it.

Sure, we give $50 to the foundation when someone buys a Healing Spa... but no matter how hard I try, I can't find the error in this.  It's a wonderful thing... and it's also wonderful that Hot Springs gives regularly to the foundation as well!

Along the same lines, when the Starlight Foundation was looking for a spa for a disabled child, Thermospas came through and donated one.  THIRTEEN other companies were asked and DECLINED the gift before they came to us.

We also have what we call our "Seasons of Giving" program.  We donate a tub approximately every two
months to a child somewhere in the United States that
has special needs.  That's around 6 spas a year we
give away to help someone in need.

Anyway, I need to get some sleep... after a quick dip
of course!  

Let's make sure to try to represent OUR industry as a
whole in a positive light on these boards.  I know that
we all get a bit passionate about or individual spas, but remember, we all get people into hot water!   ;)

Z

Title: Hey, ZNICK!
Post by: drb on June 22, 2004, 07:53:52 pm
I'm sure you sell lots of spas, and so you must have a lot of pull with the factory.  Why don't you see if you can help this nice lady out?

http://www.rhtubs.com/cgi-bin/bbs/config.pl?noframes;read=53424

:)
Title: Re: Thermospas -vs- the Competition
Post by: Chas on June 22, 2004, 10:33:08 pm
Quote
Ooops sorry Chas, I was poking fun at Thermospa suggesting that their endorsement by the arthritis foundation was purchased by donations.  I pulled that off their website.  

I pissed Chas off, I'm out of this conversation.


No offense meant Chas.


No offense was taken. I thought your Buffalo Wings schtick was funny - very funny.  :) ;D :D
Title: Re: Hey, ZNICK! - How about it?
Post by: drb on June 23, 2004, 09:23:32 pm
I know you can do it!  We're counting on you to help this poor lady!

Quote
I'm sure you sell lots of spas, and so you must have a lot of pull with the factory.  Why don't you see if you can help this nice lady out?

http://www.rhtubs.com/cgi-bin/bbs/config.pl?noframes;read=53424

 :)

Title: Re: Hey, ZNICK!
Post by: ZzTop on June 24, 2004, 12:26:27 am
Quote
I'm sure you sell lots of spas, and so you must have a lot of pull with the factory.  Why don't you see if you can help this nice lady out?

http://www.rhtubs.com/cgi-bin/bbs/config.pl?noframes;read=53424

 :)


Znick please let us know how this lady was looked after
Thanks
Regards, Zz