Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: OldSchoolSwap on January 12, 2017, 11:20:36 pm
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Hello folks,
With countless manufacturers competing.
It makes my research even harder and need some guidance from you experts here!
I am a complete newbie when it comes to hot tubs.
Let's bring up car brands that we can all relate to.
We all know the following...
Entry level:
-Kia
-Hyundai
Mid Level:
-Honda
-Toyota
-Chevy
-Nissan
Luxury:
-Jaguar
-Lexus
-Mercedes
-Audi
-Infiniti
Super cars:
-Lamborghini
-Ferrari
-Bentley
-Austin Martin
Now that we are in tune with the cars.
Can someone break down the brands of tubs by quality or "luxury" status if you will?
Every brand that I visit, I am told that there is no other tub/brand better than them and so forth.
I never grew up with tubs like we all do with cars, so I'm left clueless.....
My budget is around $8000 or so, but need to be certain I purchase the perfect tub for the money.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
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Here is the best advice I can give:
Before you center on brands in general, find out what dealers are located in your area and what brands they carry. You're not going to get a- to use your analogy- Lexus if there is no Lexus dealer anywhere near you.
Once you've located dealers, do your homework on not just the brands they carry but look at their reputation: Do you really want to spend money with someone who is not reputable? This is important because in the hot tub industry, parts can be specialized and not every area has options outside of your specific dealer to work on / get parts for your hot tub. So you're likely to have to deal with the dealer for warranty work, etc. If you do live somewhere that has both the abundance of dealers, and brands, and people to work on them then you are in great shape.
(BTW- The moderators really need a pinned thread that covers Hot Tub Purchasing 101. Look for other threads here to see other people's questions and subsequent takes on this topic).
Most dealers will have some sort of hierarchy in their showroom so "high end" will be relatively clear after visiting a few places. Some brands are better than others, but some brands also have several different lines that they manufacture, which likely have varying degrees of quality. I'll leave it to other commenters to establish what brands are better than others.
I ask my customers qualifying questions to figure out what their needs are. If they don't know what they want, these questions help identify what they don't want. Either way- I am better educated in their needs. Questions I tell my customers to ask themselves (in no particular order) are:
*Where is the tub going? --This allows me to understand if there are physical restrictions on sizing (7' tub vs 8' tub) or if the delivery may become an issue down the line.
*Are you looking for a lounger or an open seating design? --It seems that for every hot tub that has a lounge, its almost a slam dunk that there is an identical version of that unit that has open seating, and vice-versa.
*How many people do you expect to be in the tub 90% of the time? --This helps me understand usage habits. If they feel only 2 or so will be in, a 7' unit is usually fine, and they're probably going to prefer a lounger. If they believe 4+ on a regular basis, you're probably looking at an 8' tub and an open seating arrangement. This also helps me get a better grasp on their sanitization needs too.
*What is your price range? --You have already covered this, but this helps me understand what direction you should be pointed to.
The most important aspect of buying a hot tub is feeling. If you dont feel comfortable sitting / lounging in the tub physically, or do not like the feel of the jets, then there is no point going further with that product line.
Narrow down the best feeling tubs in your price range ($8k will give you a decent number of quality options, btw) to a small handful and then start the comparison process. Some places push construction, plumbing, jet style, motors, filters, ozone, on and on and on. These mean different things to different people, and different brands, and different salespeople. But always keep your physical comfort / comfort at the top of the list, as you're buying this for relaxation
There are a lot of smart people that participate in this forum who will likely chime in on this thread and you'd be remiss if you did not heed their advice.
I hope this helps. Good luck moving forward.
EDIT: Spelling. D'oh!
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The Wizard of Spas,
Thank you very much for the detailed reply!
Yes! I agree, a pinned 101 guide would be extremely helpful for first time buyers and guidance. That was the first thing I was looking for when I found this forum website.
Hot tub shopping has been very difficult and misleading, a lot harder than shopping for cars or homes!
I have learned that some manufacturers can even construct a tub to look amazing on the outside and be all trash on the inside knowing consumers would never look "under the hood" so to speak, for components, insulation, support, size of hoses etc...
I even saw a YouTube video of a big box retailer selling a tub using bigger faced jets but when you pulled them out, the outlets were the same size as the smaller jets! Which means the pressure was the same on the bigger faced jets......
With that said, I think buying from a local retailer and expert on tubs is the best way to avoid these situations but also warranty and service as you mentioned.
Things I will be looking for will be:
-Dealer reputation
-Warranty on product
-Cost of maintenance
I live in Miami Florida and it looks like I have a lot of choices on my short research for local dealers.
I have found:
-CalSpas
-CalderaSpas
-Sundance
-Bulfrog
-Jacuzzi
I am sure there are more if I dig deeper, but this is a quick search.
My tub will be used for 2 people 90% of the time. Yes a lounger is a must. Specifically looking for the best Therapeutic benefits that money can buy, this is my primary focus.
I think a 4/5 seat is more than enough.
Outside location, no size restrictions. Will build a deck for it once I know the size of the tub.
I am one of those people that try to be as healthy as possible with food consumption (organic), cleaning chemicals inside the house are mostly natural and even my lawn fertilizer is organic! With that said, all these chemicals that need to be used in the tubs are a slight concern for me as I don't want to be exposed to so many different chemicals since I plan on using this at least 5 times a week for hours.
What should I look out for when it comes to this? Is there special filter systems/ozone that do better than others and use less chemicals or a safer kind? Again, clueless...
I think wet testing the tubs would be the ultimate idea to have the piece of mind as well.
Thank you again for all the feedback and replies...
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Great post Wizard. It would be interesting if you (and any of the other dealers here) could recommend to the OP a tub or tubs based on your post. What brands do you carry and what would you recommend to the OP. I know this won't leed to a sale but may help the poster and others may find it interesting/informative.
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I’m just a guy that was clueless as you two years ago when we began our search. Living down south you wont be looking at all the cold weather options we thought about up here in the north. You will be looking for a therapeutic tub similar to what we wanted. I wanted a tub that would work fine as a social tub with friends most all tubs will do that and bigger is better with 4 or more people. I wanted to spend between 20 and 30 minutes in my tub each evening and when I got out I wanted to feel like I just had a one hour massage. I would say the hot water is only half the experience there and the jets and how the different seats are laid out is the other half. The tub we ended up buying was described as a circuit training type of tub. It is designed that each seat or at least 3 or 4 of the seats can be rotated thru after 5 to 10 minutes. The seating in those seats is deep and feels odd when sitting in them without water, reason being they are designed to hold you against the jets without getting blown out of the seat. All tubs have diverters and different speeds to the pumps to regulate this impact and most people find full force a bit much. But you need that max force to be able to control the impact of the massage you require. Our tub also has a few settings for social use one nice one is a whirlpool jet that moves water in a circle around the tub without really blasting anyone. Another is it has an air blower also that has a whole different fun feel than water jets.
When you wet test look for all these things and spend some time getting a feel for them at both high and low settings. Just like a massage sometimes you want it harder than others. After we looked at a lot we expanded our budget as we really saw and felt the difference with the tub we ended up with. The dealer of course helped us in that direction but I think in hindsight the suggestion he made was valid. He said that tub is in your current budget and this one is higher. That tub will make you happy for a couple years and at some point you will want to upgrade and come in and we will make you a deal to trade up. We knew what he was saying was true and after talking it thru we didn’t want the hassle twice and something like a hot tub is it is a you only live once purchase. It is nothing anyone has to have. Based on that we bought the Caldera Geneva.
They are all good tubs and the advice above is very good in that what fits one persons needs might not be the one for someone else.
Enjoy the process of looking and enjoy the tub you get.
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Caldera are excellent therapy tubs, but I will never forget how a competing salesman told me that my 10+ year (at the time) Caldera Paradise tub would last forever. I was shopping around at a show looking for possibilities for replacement that I assumed I'd need soon due to its age. I think that says a heck of a lot about the quality of the brand.
5 years later, that tub is still running fine but I've ordered a smaller Caldera model as a replacement. We needed something smaller, and I didn't want to risk something going wrong when my hot tub is so essential to my health (its my main pain killer for chronic pain).
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Outside of Caldera, the highest quality brands that I always hear about are Hot Springs and Sundance. The dealer is as important as the quality since if/when there are problems, they will be the ones you need to be able to count on first. We lucked out with having an incredible Caldera dealer in our area.
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Depending on what you have around you I would check out the websites of caldera, marquis, hot springs, d-1, bullfrog, Sundance, jacuzzi. Can't really go wrong with any of those brands. Each offers entry level up to highest end
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
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Great post Wizard. It would be interesting if you (and any of the other dealers here) could recommend to the OP a tub or tubs based on your post. What brands do you carry and what would you recommend to the OP. I know this won't leed to a sale but may help the poster and others may find it interesting/informative.
I try to not recommend brands as the discussion inevitably gets mired in which-brand-is-best thread with everyone chiming in. Thus- I tend to just keep you focused on the brands that are near you (in your town or service radius) while informing you on the questions that will help you identify the right tub for you based on your needs.
And to be fair: There are a handful of brands that are indeed outstanding. I liken it to the automobile industry in that aspect, as there is not one brand that stands above the rest but several, and if you're in that echelon of quality, you're going to get a great product.
If you stick to the questions I posted earlier, you'll find what is best for you, the customer. Brands do have some differentiation: Some tangible and some is different for the sake of being different. Some brands are made in the USA, some are not. Some push their water chemistry or filtration systems, so on so forth.
You may or may not care about where it is made. You may really care about the filtration or may consider that water chemistry is water chemistry, regardless of the brand. Its frame or shell may be something you are entrenched on, pertaining to its build design, etc. Regardless- These are things that are only important to you and so I try not to influence on these lessor aspects of hot tub differentiation.
So keep to what is in your neck of the woods, pare down what brands/units you like based on your criteria skimmed from the questions I mentioned above, see which dealer is reputable and what brands/units are comfortable in price/feel of the jets and then you'll have probably 90% or more of your answer.
Good luck moving forward.
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Thank you all for the great advise...
I just Wet tested the Sundance Spas and was very impressed!
I must admit, it was the first time testing out a spa for my personal use, so I'm not sure if I am easily impressed.
My next wet test will be:
-HotSprings
-Jacuzzi
-CalSpas
-Bullfrog
I think I have a healthy amount of options here...
Learning like a sponge and will make an educated decision then.
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Thank you all for the great advise...
I just Wet tested the Sundance Spas and was very impressed!
I must admit, it was the first time testing out a spa for my personal use, so I'm not sure if I am easily impressed.
My next wet test will be:
-HotSprings
-Jacuzzi
-CalSpas
-Bullfrog
I think I have a healthy amount of options here...
Learning like a sponge and will make an educated decision then.
Great brands, don't focus on the hype or gimmicks of any of those brands. Your comfort is important. One person here may find a different brand that is more comfortable for them.
Your going down in quality from the others with Calspa. Not saying its a bad brand just less expensive and of lessor quality than the others.
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Thank you all for the great advise...
I just Wet tested the Sundance Spas and was very impressed!
I must admit, it was the first time testing out a spa for my personal use, so I'm not sure if I am easily impressed.
My next wet test will be:
-HotSprings
-Jacuzzi
-CalSpas
-Bullfrog
I think I have a healthy amount of options here...
Learning like a sponge and will make an educated decision then.
One more tip. I don't know which Sundance you tested but try to test equal brands for each tub. For instance if you tested a 800 series Sundance then Test a A series bullfrog. Agree with everything t-man says as well
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Thank you all for the great advise...
I just Wet tested the Sundance Spas and was very impressed!
I must admit, it was the first time testing out a spa for my personal use, so I'm not sure if I am easily impressed.
My next wet test will be:
-HotSprings
-Jacuzzi
-CalSpas
-Bullfrog
I think I have a healthy amount of options here...
Learning like a sponge and will make an educated decision then.
One more tip. I don't know which Sundance you tested but try to test equal brands for each tub. For instance if you tested a 800 series Sundance then Test a A series bullfrog. Agree with everything t-man says as well
I tested the 880 Cameo and the Aspen from Sundance.
Once I jumped in the Aspen, I got in big trouble!
All of a sudden, I'm more comfortable and free to roam around the tub effortlessly! I should have just wet tested Cameo alone....
Not sure what other companies will have in the same size range, but I'm sure not many do. I think Hot Springs and Jacuzzi are the only ones.
At this point, I'll probably go for the best priced one, since I just pretty much doubled my budget :/
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
After looking into Bullfrog's website, I am extremely impressed with the manufacturing process and designs! The MODEL A8L seems to be my best selection. Wet test coming soon...
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
After looking into Bullfrog's website, I am extremely impressed with the manufacturing process and designs! The MODEL A8L seems to be my best selection. Wet test coming soon...
They make a great tub! My advice would be make sure you try the: NeckMasseuse, Oscillator, Versa, Wellness, Pulsator and Deep Relief JetPaks....those are 6 of my favorite, doesn't mean they will be your favorites but it's a good starting point during a wet test...Good Luck!
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
After looking into Bullfrog's website, I am extremely impressed with the manufacturing process and designs! The MODEL A8L seems to be my best selection. Wet test coming soon...
They make a great tub! My advice would be make sure you try the: NeckMasseuse, Oscillator, Versa, Wellness, Pulsator and Deep Relief JetPaks....those are 6 of my favorite, doesn't mean they will be your favorites but it's a good starting point during a wet test...Good Luck!
And as exactly as important as trying all the seats and the different feels of any brands style of jetting, movable or not.
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
After looking into Bullfrog's website, I am extremely impressed with the manufacturing process and designs! The MODEL A8L seems to be my best selection. Wet test coming soon...
They make a great tub! My advice would be make sure you try the: NeckMasseuse, Oscillator, Versa, Wellness, Pulsator and Deep Relief JetPaks....those are 6 of my favorite, doesn't mean they will be your favorites but it's a good starting point during a wet test...Good Luck!
And as exactly as important as trying all the seats and the different feels of any brands style of jetting, movable or not.
Absolutely, especially in a Bullfrog or any other Make/Model that has varying seat heights/varying jet variety within the spa, during a wet test I even offer people sit on the cool down seat if the spa has it, just to make sure it's "big enough" so they can sit there comfortably when it's in their backyard.
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
It amazes me how well that video works at deceiving people.
-
Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
It amazes me how well that video works at deceiving people.
Every commercial and YouTube video about a product is designed to highlight the product as if it's the best on the market!
However, some brands stand above all the rest.
Using facts, side by side comparisons and some common sense should lead consumers on the right path.
Bullfrog in my opinion did a very good job using existing conventional comparisons vs the new ideas and why they claim to be better with facts by using videos, schematics, pictures and comparisons to prove the point! I applaud them for doing such a great job.
I'll give you a good comparison on videos, (not to bash the brand) but ThermoSpas has a nice video but nothing that convinced me like the Bullfrog. I'm sure other manufacturers use similar presentations to attract consumers into their brand, but again.... Nothing close to Bullfrog.
Other manufacturers will not dare touch most of the topics that Bullfrog has pointed out in the video.
Now, let's keep one thing clear.... I am not picking any sides yet as I have not made a final purchase, but here are some of the key features about Bullfrog that I picked out and thought were superior compared to other brands in the same class tub.
- Frame/base components and construction (lifetime warranty and no rotting or degrading due to superior composites used)
- Insulation is far superior to competitors
- Energy savings almost slashed in half compared to competitors in the same class size tub and specs
- Upgradable jets with the Jetpaks, not stuck with the only thing drilled into the tub. Not to mention a wide variety of specific Jetpacks that will accommodate to your personal needs (not settling on what the "traditional" Spa came with)
- Stronger tubs without cheese like holes everywhere that diminish structural integrity of the tub.
- Less hosing, simpler technology to deliver the water and so forth....
- USA Made
With the all that said, I must wet test it to see jet performance, comfort and over all "real life" operation of the tub.
One thing is looking at a tub on paper and video, and the other is living it in real life....
-
Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
It amazes me how well that video works at deceiving people.
Every commercial and YouTube video about a product is designed to highlight the product as if it's the best on the market!
However, some brands stand above all the rest.
Using facts, side by side comparisons and some common sense should lead consumers on the right path.
Bullfrog in my opinion did a very good job using existing conventional comparisons vs the new ideas and why they claim to be better with facts by using videos, schematics, pictures and comparisons to prove the point! I applaud them for doing such a great job.
I'll give you a good comparison on videos, (not to bash the brand) but ThermoSpas has a nice video but nothing that convinced me like the Bullfrog. I'm sure other manufacturers use similar presentations to attract consumers into their brand, but again.... Nothing close to Bullfrog.
Other manufacturers will not dare touch most of the topics that Bullfrog has pointed out in the video.
Now, let's keep one thing clear.... I am not picking any sides yet as I have not made a final purchase, but here are some of the key features about Bullfrog that I picked out and thought were superior compared to other brands in the same class tub.
- Frame/base components and construction (lifetime warranty and no rotting or degrading due to superior composites used)
- Insulation is far superior to competitors
- Energy savings almost slashed in half compared to competitors in the same class size tub and specs
- Upgradable jets with the Jetpaks, not stuck with the only thing drilled into the tub. Not to mention a wide variety of specific Jetpacks that will accommodate to your personal needs (not settling on what the "traditional" Spa came with)
- Stronger tubs without cheese like holes everywhere that diminish structural integrity of the tub.
- Less hosing, simpler technology to deliver the water and so forth....
- USA Made
With the all that said, I must wet test it to see jet performance, comfort and over all "real life" operation of the tub.
One thing is looking at a tub on paper and video, and the other is living it in real life....
There insulation is no different then others. Energy savings will be the same as a dozen other brands, jet paks are a neat concept, shells are no stronger then others, they aren't the only us made hot tub. Don't fall for all the marketing stuff. Wet test and let that be your determining factor
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
It amazes me how well that video works at deceiving people.
Every commercial and YouTube video about a product is designed to highlight the product as if it's the best on the market!
However, some brands stand above all the rest.
Using facts, side by side comparisons and some common sense should lead consumers on the right path.
Bullfrog in my opinion did a very good job using existing conventional comparisons vs the new ideas and why they claim to be better with facts by using videos, schematics, pictures and comparisons to prove the point! I applaud them for doing such a great job.
I'll give you a good comparison on videos, (not to bash the brand) but ThermoSpas has a nice video but nothing that convinced me like the Bullfrog. I'm sure other manufacturers use similar presentations to attract consumers into their brand, but again.... Nothing close to Bullfrog.
Other manufacturers will not dare touch most of the topics that Bullfrog has pointed out in the video.
Now, let's keep one thing clear.... I am not picking any sides yet as I have not made a final purchase, but here are some of the key features about Bullfrog that I picked out and thought were superior compared to other brands in the same class tub.
- Frame/base components and construction (lifetime warranty and no rotting or degrading due to superior composites used)
- Insulation is far superior to competitors
- Energy savings almost slashed in half compared to competitors in the same class size tub and specs
- Upgradable jets with the Jetpaks, not stuck with the only thing drilled into the tub. Not to mention a wide variety of specific Jetpacks that will accommodate to your personal needs (not settling on what the "traditional" Spa came with)
- Stronger tubs without cheese like holes everywhere that diminish structural integrity of the tub.
- Less hosing, simpler technology to deliver the water and so forth....
- USA Made
With the all that said, I must wet test it to see jet performance, comfort and over all "real life" operation of the tub.
One thing is looking at a tub on paper and video, and the other is living it in real life....
There insulation is no different then others. Energy savings will be the same as a dozen other brands, jet paks are a neat concept, shells are no stronger then others, they aren't the only us made hot tub. Don't fall for all the marketing stuff. Wet test and let that be your determining factor
Roger that!
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Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
It amazes me how well that video works at deceiving people.
[/quote]
Every commercial and YouTube video about a product is designed to highlight the product as if it's the best on the market!
However, some brands stand above all the rest.
Using facts, side by side comparisons and some common sense should lead consumers on the right path.
Bullfrog in my opinion did a very good job using existing conventional comparisons vs the new ideas and why they claim to be better with facts by using videos, schematics, pictures and comparisons to prove the point! I applaud them for doing such a great job.
I'll give you a good comparison on videos, (not to bash the brand) but ThermoSpas has a nice video but nothing that convinced me like the Bullfrog. I'm sure other manufacturers use similar presentations to attract consumers into their brand, but again.... Nothing close to Bullfrog.
Other manufacturers will not dare touch most of the topics that Bullfrog has pointed out in the video.
Now, let's keep one thing clear.... I am not picking any sides yet as I have not made a final purchase, but here are some of the key features about Bullfrog that I picked out and thought were superior compared to other brands in the same class tub.
- Frame/base components and construction (lifetime warranty and no rotting or degrading due to superior composites used)
- Insulation is far superior to competitors
- Energy savings almost slashed in half compared to competitors in the same class size tub and specs
- Upgradable jets with the Jetpaks, not stuck with the only thing drilled into the tub. Not to mention a wide variety of specific Jetpacks that will accommodate to your personal needs (not settling on what the "traditional" Spa came with)
- Stronger tubs without cheese like holes everywhere that diminish structural integrity of the tub.
- Less hosing, simpler technology to deliver the water and so forth....
- USA Made
With the all that said, I must wet test it to see jet performance, comfort and over all "real life" operation of the tub.
One thing is looking at a tub on paper and video, and the other is living it in real life....
[/quote]
- Frame/base components and construction (lifetime warranty and no rotting or degrading due to superior composites used) Not true, Lots of brands have lifetime warranty on frame and base. Composite is used for tons of brands.
- Insulation is far superior to competitors. Not even close. Show me the testing results
- Energy savings almost slashed in half compared to competitors in the same class size tub and specs. Not sure where this came from? But I guarantee there are tubs the same size that cost less to operate.
- Upgradable jets with the Jetpaks, not stuck with the only thing drilled into the tub. Not to mention a wide variety of specific Jetpacks that will accommodate to your personal needs (not settling on what the "traditional" Spa came with) Arctic claimed they could change jets also. No one ever did but you could. This is a plus for BF but, moving the manifold to inside the tub WILL make it noisier.
- Stronger tubs without cheese like holes everywhere that diminish structural integrity of the tub. 100% BS if the shell is strong enough to support the holes drilled in it forever. Making one stronger does not make it better or necessary. And who says its stronger Bull Frog? In my mind less holes means you can use less material in the shell. Show me the test results showing their shell is thicker and stronger in relevant testing.
- Less hosing, simpler technology to deliver the water and so forth.... The feel of the tub is what is important. Less hose won't help that, simpler tech won't help that. And if you used the tub in the video as your comparison you have been deceived. I asked for them to identify the make and model of tub in the video comparison and they..........well they wouldn't answer
- USA Made Lots of tubs USA made but, how does this make it better? Is your TV USA made?
Please don't be swayed by miss truths and sales BS from a web site. Flow and feel has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the BF design. The one advantage they have is the ability for you to choose the jet pacs that feel best to you. But you may not like any of them? Wet test to find out what is best for you. Don't rely on a deceitful sales pitch or video. While it's different, it's still just sliced bread. And pushing water through lines to a distribution point can be done lots of ways. The HK jets and engineering from Marquis will blow away any jet on any jetpac. Combined with the right pump and distribution method it may feel worlds better than BF or any brand to you. But you will never know if you rely on a video and web site to steer you.
There is nothing wrong with BF. They make a fine tub. Just not better than 5-10 others. Just different.
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"The HK jets and engineering from Marquis will blow away any jet on any jetpac. "
I have two of these in my marquis and they are insane. Placed for leg and feet massage in my tub but other Marquis tubs have them for back massage. I think they pump 250 gallons per minute or something like that.
I remember my buying experience where the first place I went to sold Sundance and I was basically told that no one can touch Sundance as far as quality. Same guy then tried to sell me a Hot Springs. Luckily I found this forum and listened to everyone and did wet tests. Hence my buying a Marquis. No regrets.
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Hydrotherapy, Quality & Made in the USA...Bullfrog R6 or R6L if you prefer lounger, go shop it/wet test it and buy it, it'll be the best decision you've ever made
16 min. Bullfrog Consumer Video if you aren't real close to a showroom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjHrqYZSYY)
Happy Soaking!
Either way, I'm 90% hooked on this brand, after watching that long clip on YouTube.
Seems to me that they are on a different level all together....
I'm just hoping the price doesn't go sky rocket because of that.
If the A8L is priced too high, I think the R8L will do the job!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice....
R8L would be a good alternative for a few bucks less, you lose a few of the upgrades but the performance, JetPaks, etc. will all be the same...good luck!
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It amazes me how well that video works at deceiving people.
[/quote]
- Frame/base components and construction (lifetime warranty and no rotting or degrading due to superior composites used) Not true, Lots of brands have lifetime warranty on frame and base. Composite is used for tons of brands.
- Insulation is far superior to competitors. Not even close. Show me the testing results
- Energy savings almost slashed in half compared to competitors in the same class size tub and specs. Not sure where this came from? But I guarantee there are tubs the same size that cost less to operate.
- Upgradable jets with the Jetpaks, not stuck with the only thing drilled into the tub. Not to mention a wide variety of specific Jetpacks that will accommodate to your personal needs (not settling on what the "traditional" Spa came with) Arctic claimed they could change jets also. No one ever did but you could. This is a plus for BF but, moving the manifold to inside the tub WILL make it noisier.
- Stronger tubs without cheese like holes everywhere that diminish structural integrity of the tub. 100% BS if the shell is strong enough to support the holes drilled in it forever. Making one stronger does not make it better or necessary. And who says its stronger Bull Frog? In my mind less holes means you can use less material in the shell. Show me the test results showing their shell is thicker and stronger in relevant testing.
- Less hosing, simpler technology to deliver the water and so forth.... The feel of the tub is what is important. Less hose won't help that, simpler tech won't help that. And if you used the tub in the video as your comparison you have been deceived. I asked for them to identify the make and model of tub in the video comparison and they..........well they wouldn't answer
- USA Made Lots of tubs USA made but, how does this make it better? Is your TV USA made?
Please don't be swayed by miss truths and sales BS from a web site. Flow and feel has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the BF design. The one advantage they have is the ability for you to choose the jet pacs that feel best to you. But you may not like any of them? Wet test to find out what is best for you. Don't rely on a deceitful sales pitch or video. While it's different, it's still just sliced bread. And pushing water through lines to a distribution point can be done lots of ways. The HK jets and engineering from Marquis will blow away any jet on any jetpac. Combined with the right pump and distribution method it may feel worlds better than BF or any brand to you. But you will never know if you rely on a video and web site to steer you.
There is nothing wrong with BF. They make a fine tub. Just not better than 5-10 others. Just different.
[/quote]
Thanks again for all the advise as I take every word posted on this forum and expand my knowledge.
As stated before, I am aware of all the marketing tactics as I am a sales rep for over 15 years myself. So, I know the game very well.
In my first post I did a car brand comparison to get an idea where the hot tub industry sat so I can have a point of reference when shopping for tubs.
Nobody stepped up to the plate to give some guidance to avoiding further arguments amongst each other on this forum, which I completely understand.
However, I had to move on and keep learning and absorbing every manufacturers claims, benefits as I got drowned with so much info I had to step back and determine maybe I should do this by price? (which is impossible to get online unlike the automobile industry) so it makes research even harder for comparison reasons.
So I said to myself "ok" usually the rule of thumb is: "you get what you pay for" but I soon found out it's exhausting having to visit every dealer just to determine price for comparisons, and then sit down at home and do all the homework.
Some may say I'm over thinking it! But I say to myself, an $8k to $13k decision that will last over 15 years MUST be precisely selected with no regrets in my opinion.
I must agree with all of you. Wet testing by far is the best way to help make that decision, so I will keep "swimming" so to speak until I make up my mind in the end of all my comparisons.
I hope all newbies are coming along these posts and absorbing all the information. I'm sure they can relate with some of the frustration involved in hot tub shopping, haha!
So far I've only been able to wet test the Sundance Aspen and loved it! But as stated in previous posts, I will wet test a few more to make a 110% no regret purchase.
As far as the Energy efficiency/consumption & insulation information. Here are comparisons against actual competitors and models:
http://www.bullfrogspas.com/energy-save/
Regarding the tub being made in the USA: I think units/tubs that are built here may have a better parts source in the future should anything break down 10 to 15 years from now and in the long run all together and not have to go to China for an obsolete part... Plus you get to contribute employment "in house" on a large dollar amount purchase. Not to say I do this with every purchase, but sometimes doing the right thing is rewarding.
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You are on the right track. BF does not have exclusive rights to deceptive sales practices. And please don't compare them to Thermospa. There are those that consider BF the best. But everyone has what they feel is the best including me.
At least your past the big pumps mean great feel stage. Plumbing engineering and hydrodynamics is complicated. The top end manufacturers know how to make jets feel good. They know that there is a window between to much and not enough. And the good ones stretch the window to accommodate several feels. But which "feel" is yours? We don't know. And none of the manufacturers do either including BF which slices their bread different than Marquis, or Hot Springs, or D1, or any of the 10 or so "best"
Now, which manufacturer spends the most on engineering and hydrodynamics? But spending the most does not equate to the best either. Which manufacturer has the highest quality water movement guys?
They have come a long ways since "boxes of hot swirling water"
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tman's odd obsession with Bullfrog continues. I just want to point out that he has zero experience with a modern Bullfrog.
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I wonder if anyone here has ever had to do a warranty claim on a frame? Or on a shell?
I've mainly sold tubs with 2x4 wood construction, but I've also sold a few that weren't. I've never heard of frame damage on a house (Unless a tornado happens to cross its path) and you live in one. But somehow that isn't good enough for a hot tub? But they made steel frames for hot tubs. Now its composite. Whats better? That is not really the question that matters. The one that matters is: Has anyone ever had a warranty claim on a hot tub frame?
I haven't. I haven't heard of anyone who has. I bet if I look hard I can find one. But is that a good representation of the industry as a whole?
Take this argument and apply to shells, knowing only 2 manufacturers of shells dominate the industry. Has anyone had a shell warranty claim? I haven't. I don't know of anyone who has. Again- I am sure I could search for one but is that an accurate representation as a whole?
The point is- When you're down this far into the rabbit hole, you're forgetting the major points. This isn't to knock Bullfrog (which I do not carry) or anyone else's brand. Its just to show how far you have to go to differentiate products/brands.
Keep up with what brand is in your market- any brand that isn't there is just white noise and totally irrelevant to you. Find out what dealers are reputable- You're going to do business with them a long time. Be sure you trust them. And above all else- Pick the tub that feels the best to you in both jet action and ergonomics.
This is 90% of your decision.
When you delineate from that, you get into these sorts of tit-for-tats. Lets say Bullfrog hits you with their jetpacks and plumbing. If I was selling against them I'd ask about how a jet is fixed once the water gets to it/the jet breaks, and then look at that whole cost. Who's right? The answer is: It doesn't matter- This is at best 10% of your answer. Don't bury the lede.
In the end its about you, the feel of the jets, the feel of the tub, and your relationship with the dealer. That is the lede.
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tman's odd obsession with Bullfrog continues. I just want to point out that he has zero experience with a modern Bullfrog.
it is slightly weird...then claims Marquis (who btw I believe makes a damn good spa) engineering blows away Bullfrog...Hmmm what's Marquis' newest feature this year?.....JET PODS, Hmmm what does a JET POD sound like? maybe a JetPak? haha even the industry is catching on and knows how powerful the message is, then claims his fav. brand is Dimension 1 (again good brand, nothing against them) but seriously when was their last updated design? 15 years ago? It seems he has issues with anything "new" and OMG the horror that companies actually market their products, those evil companies trying to sell stuff with marketing, how terrible.
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tman's odd obsession with Bullfrog continues. I just want to point out that he has zero experience with a modern Bullfrog.
it is slightly weird...then claims Marquis (who btw I believe makes a damn good spa) engineering blows away Bullfrog...Hmmm what's Marquis' newest feature this year?.....JET PODS, Hmmm what does a JET POD sound like? maybe a JetPak? haha even the industry is catching on and knows how powerful the message is, then claims his fav. brand is Dimension 1 (again good brand, nothing against them) but seriously when was their last updated design? 15 years ago? It seems he has issues with anything "new" and OMG the horror that companies actually market their products, those evil companies trying to sell stuff with marketing, how terrible.
I actually agree with what you are saying. Marquis began working on the Jet Pod system back in 2014. I was on dealer advisory board when talks began on those. Can't really remember if bullfrog was the "new" popular Tub yet at that time. I agree they look great. Dimension one isn't the same as far as quality as they were 5-10 years ago. The only thing that would concern me as a bullfrog dealer is how they are getting so big so quick. 3-4 years ago they were barely a player. Now they are the new "best" thing. Hopefully the infrastructure of the company is setup to handle the big increase in production. Like Marquis I also like the fact that they are still made in the US
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It's because some of the people that made Jacuzzi great again in 2002, (pardon the pun) went to BF and made them great again in 2014. Specially in design, functionality and quality. Sales reps/support help as well. I would like to thank Craig Selvedge big time who was a pioneer in the industry since the early 70s and all in all a great guy! Some here may know him? Jerry Paisley was a huge part of bringing BF to what it is today as well as Jim Ferguson! BF is a great company and I feel they care about the customer and the dealer and am proud to sell them.
Tman has a distain for their misleading sales tactics, but who cares, dinosaurs disappeared for a reason..
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tman's odd obsession with Bullfrog continues. I just want to point out that he has zero experience with a modern Bullfrog.
But I have a lot of experience with BS
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tman's odd obsession with Bullfrog continues. I just want to point out that he has zero experience with a modern Bullfrog.
it is slightly weird...then claims Marquis (who btw I believe makes a damn good spa) engineering blows away Bullfrog...Hmmm what's Marquis' newest feature this year?.....JET PODS, Hmmm what does a JET POD sound like? maybe a JetPak? haha even the industry is catching on and knows how powerful the message is, then claims his fav. brand is Dimension 1 (again good brand, nothing against them) but seriously when was their last updated design? 15 years ago? It seems he has issues with anything "new" and OMG the horror that companies actually market their products, those evil companies trying to sell stuff with marketing, how terrible.
Seems you BF salesman don't listen very good. I didn't say anything about Marquis engineering being better. I know nothing about BF as you stated. But the feel of the HK jets blew away the feel of the BF jetpacs I have sat in front of as recent as 1 year ago. The OP may or may not think so but basing his thoughts on a BS video is wrong. I also didn't say D1 was my favorite brand. The MOLD, WATER FLOW and JETS on the D1 Nautilis is my personal favorite. Been saying that for years. But as is typical, a salesman from an opposing brand puts a spin on something in order to try and convince someone that their views are right. And to skew the public's view to match theirs. Educating consumers to get them past a BS sales video that IMO is a waste of time and full of untruths is the goal. This is a help forum not a sales forum.
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and OMG the horror that companies actually market their products, those evil companies trying to sell stuff with marketing, how terrible.
During your investigation into your purchase old school don't forget this very wise quote from BFSM
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And why is it I am the bad guy, so against BF, obsessed were the words used to describe. When it truly is nothing more than the same BS or "marketing" as stated used again and again that has been called out so many times in the past.
If you BF salesman would like me to list the questions again that need to be answered that the video claims, I certainly will. But I never got the answers any of the previous times I asked.
Here's one of the questions, what tub was used for the 90% less plumbing comparison? But I dout the OP is even looking at that tub. But again we will never know.
Here's another question, how does less plumbing relate to a better jet feel?
Another, By putting the manifolds BF claims to not have, inside the vessel in the form of jetpacs, does it increase the cavitation noise inside the vessel.
Another, what is the warranty on the jetpac seals? Seems a common customer accessible failure point.
And another, what is the water flow in GPM of the current pumps used by BF? And what is the head loss?
I could go on and on. But the OP seems like a smart guy. I am sure he will investigate himself and I am sure he understands the BS spewed by BF better now.
My obsession is not with BF. They make a fine tub. My obsession is with B*** S***
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And why is it I am the bad guy, so against BF, obsessed were the words used to describe. When it truly is nothing more than the same BS or "marketing" as stated used again and again that has been called out so many times in the past.
If you BF salesman would like me to list the questions again that need to be answered that the video claims, I certainly will. But I never got the answers any of the previous times I asked.
Here's one of the questions, what tub was used for the 90% less plumbing comparison? But I dout the OP is even looking at that tub. But again we will never know.
Here's another question, how does less plumbing relate to a better jet feel?
Another, By putting the manifolds BF claims to not have, inside the vessel in the form of jetpacs, does it increase the cavitation noise inside the vessel.
Another, what is the warranty on the jetpac seals? Seems a common customer accessible failure point.
And another, what is the water flow in GPM of the current pumps used by BF? And what is the head loss?
I could go on and on. But the OP seems like a smart guy. I am sure he will investigate himself and I am sure he understands the BS spewed by BF better now.
My obsession is not with BF. They make a fine tub. My obsession is with B*** S***
For those of us who have been around her for a while, Tman is speaking the truth here. He doesn't have it out for BF. He has called out several brands in the past (including the brand I sell) for what he sees as marketing BS. He and I have gone back and fourth some in the past, but it is all in fun. I can see how people can take it that way though, especially those who sell the product.
I actually agree with Tman that some of those claims are probably stretched quite a bit. The line of cutting spas energy use by at least half. No way that is true. The stronger shell than every other spa. Again, that is obviously not true, and that can't be proven no matter the swiss cheese line they use!
My .02 is top shop around at all of your good local dealers. Look at them all closely. Wet test to see what you like and dislike. Just because you like a lounger on one spa, doesn't mean you will like a lounger on the next spa. Compare warranties to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
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And why is it I am the bad guy, so against BF, obsessed were the words used to describe. When it truly is nothing more than the same BS or "marketing" as stated used again and again that has been called out so many times in the past.
If you BF salesman would like me to list the questions again that need to be answered that the video claims, I certainly will. But I never got the answers any of the previous times I asked.
Here's one of the questions, what tub was used for the 90% less plumbing comparison? But I dout the OP is even looking at that tub. But again we will never know.
Here's another question, how does less plumbing relate to a better jet feel?
Another, By putting the manifolds BF claims to not have, inside the vessel in the form of jetpacs, does it increase the cavitation noise inside the vessel.
Another, what is the warranty on the jetpac seals? Seems a common customer accessible failure point.
And another, what is the water flow in GPM of the current pumps used by BF? And what is the head loss?
I could go on and on. But the OP seems like a smart guy. I am sure he will investigate himself and I am sure he understands the BS spewed by BF better now.
My obsession is not with BF. They make a fine tub. My obsession is with B*** S***
For those of us who have been around her for a while, Tman is speaking the truth here. He doesn't have it out for BF. He has called out several brands in the past (including the brand I sell) for what he sees as marketing BS. He and I have gone back and fourth some in the past, but it is all in fun. I can see how people can take it that way though, especially those who sell the product.
I actually agree with Tman that some of those claims are probably stretched quite a bit. The line of cutting spas energy use by at least half. No way that is true. The stronger shell than every other spa. Again, that is obviously not true, and that can't be proven no matter the swiss cheese line they use!
My .02 is top shop around at all of your good local dealers. Look at them all closely. Wet test to see what you like and dislike. Just because you like a lounger on one spa, doesn't mean you will like a lounger on the next spa. Compare warranties to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
Thanks Water Boy. But as you know facts and truth do not need support to be.........well, facts and truth.
It's a sales thing that I understand a lot more than most realize. While I was a repair tech for a lot of years I first and foremost am a purchasing agent for a very large contractor with a plumbing background. Been doing it for almost 30 years. And good purchasing is the anti sales.
Any one here know why working on downhill plumbing is more expensive than working on uphill plumbing? After all no pumps are required to get water to flow downhill.
Insults always fly when the facts don't match the sales pitch. No matter who the manufacturer is.
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I purchased a bullfrog (although an x series). I don't see anything wrong with what Tman has said in this particular thread. However, when all you dealers start bashing on each other and start the brand wars it only makes all you guys look bad and childish. Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to give you some insight from a consumer. In my career being a professional also means acting like one. Don't lower yourselves to the typical used care salesman stereotype.
Now I hope I haven't offended you guys since you all typically give great advice that make this forum what it is!
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See page 1, post #10 of this thread ;)
But I do enjoy watching the banter ;D
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Sorry I shouldn't say "all" the dealers do it.
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See page 1, post #10 of this thread ;)
But I do enjoy watching the banter ;D
Good solid, kinda one sided debate. I don't take offense. The insults are subtle. Anyone's logic can be fogged by good salesmanship. Hear Hear guys. I've complimented BF guys on the effort in the past.
All the jets get full power. No diverters. No manifolds. I'm just a dumb plumber. I don't know anything about Bull Frog Spas.
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I purchased a bullfrog (although an x series). I don't see anything wrong with what Tman has said in this particular thread. However, when all you dealers start bashing on each other and start the brand wars it only makes all you guys look bad and childish. Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to give you some insight from a consumer. In my career being a professional also means acting like one. Don't lower yourselves to the typical used care salesman stereotype.
Now I hope I haven't offended you guys since you all typically give great advice that make this forum what it is!
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't anyone bashing any brand on here. There are many good brands out there. All things being equal a dealer of a specific product is going to push that product. I personally think BF makes a good product. I don't think they are the best but they are a solid brand
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Wet tested the Bullfrog and was very impressed by the performance, quiet operation and overall comfort.
They also carry Dimension 1 and other brands in the facility which made things easier for me, for comparison reasons.
I'm still open to other brands but I am leaning towards the Bullfrog A8L or the R8L
So, the next question I guess would be.... what price would be a fair price for either model since they always start at the MSRP and then the hassle begins.
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Wet tested the Bullfrog and was very impressed by the performance, quiet operation and overall comfort.
They also carry Dimension 1 and other brands in the facility which made things easier for me, for comparison reasons.
I'm still open to other brands but I am leaning towards the Bullfrog A8L or the R8L
So, the next question I guess would be.... what price would be a fair price for either model since they always start at the MSRP and then the hassle begins.
Fyi, Bullfrog does not set an MSRP for their dealers. Also, not all dealers start with an artificially inflated price.
Depending on what options you want, delivery location and access, etc, you should be somewhere near the $11k range for the R8L and around $13k range for the A8L. That should be enough to cover the important stuff like cover, steps, etc, at most places. Maybe a few hundred more or less. Though, I've seen people post some ridiculously low prices here so who knows, where you live you may have one of those dealers. I would imagine most would be close to what I listed though.
What jet packs did you like when you wet tested? My personal new favorite is the Versa. I also like the deep relief and think the rainshower is pretty cool and unique feeling.
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Wet tested the Bullfrog and was very impressed by the performance, quiet operation and overall comfort.
They also carry Dimension 1 and other brands in the facility which made things easier for me, for comparison reasons.
I'm still open to other brands but I am leaning towards the Bullfrog A8L or the R8L
So, the next question I guess would be.... what price would be a fair price for either model since they always start at the MSRP and then the hassle begins.
Fyi, Bullfrog does not set an MSRP for their dealers. Also, not all dealers start with an artificially inflated price.
Depending on what options you want, delivery location and access, etc, you should be somewhere near the $11k range for the R8L and around $13k range for the A8L. That should be enough to cover the important stuff like cover, steps, etc, at most places. Maybe a few hundred more or less. Though, I've seen people post some ridiculously low prices here so who knows, where you live you may have one of those dealers. I would imagine most would be close to what I listed though.
What jet packs did you like when you wet tested? My personal new favorite is the Versa. I also like the deep relief and think the rainshower is pretty cool and unique feeling.
Oscillator
RainShower
NeckMasseuse
Were by far my favorite ones. Didn't get a chance to test all of them but these past the test!
Must try the rest to make sure I'm happy with my selection.
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Were at 11,600 for an R8L with lift and ozone. 13,000 for a A8L
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Were at 11,600 for an R8L with lift and ozone. 13,000 for a A8L
I'm slightly higher but 70% of our tubs get salt which adds to the cost of course....hope all is well Jim!
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Were at 11,600 for an R8L with lift and ozone. 13,000 for a A8L
I'm slightly higher but 70% of our tubs get salt which adds to the cost of course....hope all is well Jim!
Been doing great, hope all is well with you! Light Winter for you back there? We got some good snow this year so it's been nice.
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Wet tested the Bullfrog and was very impressed by the performance, quiet operation and overall comfort.
They also carry Dimension 1 and other brands in the facility which made things easier for me, for comparison reasons.
I'm still open to other brands but I am leaning towards the Bullfrog A8L or the R8L
So, the next question I guess would be.... what price would be a fair price for either model since they always start at the MSRP and then the hassle begins.
Fyi, Bullfrog does not set an MSRP for their dealers. Also, not all dealers start with an artificially inflated price.
Depending on what options you want, delivery location and access, etc, you should be somewhere near the $11k range for the R8L and around $13k range for the A8L. That should be enough to cover the important stuff like cover, steps, etc, at most places. Maybe a few hundred more or less. Though, I've seen people post some ridiculously low prices here so who knows, where you live you may have one of those dealers. I would imagine most would be close to what I listed though.
What jet packs did you like when you wet tested? My personal new favorite is the Versa. I also like the deep relief and think the rainshower is pretty cool and unique feeling.
Oscillator
RainShower
NeckMasseuse
Were by far my favorite ones. Didn't get a chance to test all of them but these past the test!
Must try the rest to make sure I'm happy with my selection.
Those are all great and the 3 most popular. I absolutely love the oscillator. No other hot tub has something that compares to it. The versa is pretty good too. It has a couple of the oscillator jets in it.
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Oscillator, Rainshower, Deep Relief... almost every Bullfrog goes out with these three for us. The last one is normally NeckMasseuse or Versa.
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I have had the same run with those, Wellness has come on strong also lately.
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Were at 11,600 for an R8L with lift and ozone. 13,000 for a A8L
I'm slightly higher but 70% of our tubs get salt which adds to the cost of course....hope all is well Jim!
Salt in a Bullfrog?
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Were at 11,600 for an R8L with lift and ozone. 13,000 for a A8L
I'm slightly higher but 70% of our tubs get salt which adds to the cost of course....hope all is well Jim!
Salt in a Bullfrog?
It's an option that the dealer adds on to the spa, it's not an option from the manufacturer. The system that BullFrogSpasMN sells is a bromine generator called Blu Fusion. You add salt upon start up. The salt is then converted to bromine which is the sanitizer. There are also chlorine salt generators as well.
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Salt in a Bullfrog?
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It's an option that the dealer adds on to the spa, it's not an option from the manufacturer. The system that BullFrogSpasMN sells is a bromine generator called Blu Fusion. You add salt upon start up. The salt is then converted to bromine which is the sanitizer. There are also chlorine salt generators as well.
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With salt being converted to bromine or chlorine, what is the advantage of a salt system vs using bromine or chlorine from the get go? I seem to be missing something.
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The pros are you use less chemical, less frequent water changes, the water is soft with no chemical smell. It automatically creates bromine (when the spa is cycling) and you do not have to add it. You also do not have to shock. There is an informational YouTube video on it if you're interested. Those are the pros. There is also a concern about salt and its corrosiveness. You will find all sorts of differing opinions on that from dealers to owners.
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Is the salt system something I can install after? Haven't talked to the dealer it yet
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Salt in a Bullfrog?
It's an option that the dealer adds on to the spa, it's not an option from the manufacturer. The system that BullFrogSpasMN sells is a bromine generator called Blu Fusion. You add salt upon start up. The salt is then converted to bromine which is the sanitizer. There are also chlorine salt generators as well.
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With salt being converted to bromine or chlorine, what is the advantage of a salt system vs using bromine or chlorine from the get go? I seem to be missing something.
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Here is my response to Chlorine vs Bromine from another thread a couple weeks back....
Correct, it does use Sodium Bromide which will run you approx. $10-$13 per pound (retail), thankfully we have a managed a way to save extra expense and pass it along by buying it in bulk 300-400 lbs at a time straight from the source, with that said our largest spa we sell still only requires approx. 7 lbs to "start-up" the system. We send out a tech (with customers onsite) who installs the system internally, it does have a control panel we will install into the cabinet if the customer so chooses otherwise the system can essentially remain "hidden" within the cabinet, no cells dangling over the side, no power cords running across the deck, etc. just a nice clean hidden install.
I MUCH prefer a Bromine based system over competitors such as ACE, Bromine vs Chlorine is much more stable with a much lower dissipation rate in water temps over 97 degrees, Bromine based systems will also work much more reliably over a broader ph/Alk./Calcium Hardness range which essentially means the system itself is much less "finicky" Now I'm not saying we have that loose water-care approach with customers, we still educate and let them know the importance of maintaining proper water parameters but the system itself will produce sanitizer MUCH easier than a chlorine based system in adverse water conditions and it's not even close. We fill the spa up, add a small amount of Phosphate Stabilizer to the water, balance pH/Alk then add the appropriate amount of salt and you are off and running. As far as cleaning the cell the manufacturer pre-packages a "cell cleaner" which is essentially muriatic acid diluted to be more "customer friendly" we install the cell with unions so it can easily be removed for a yearly cleaning. The Blu Fusion system we sell has a full 3 year warranty on the cell (full meaning if it fails in 2 yrs. 11 months it gets replaced in FULL) and replacements with 1 hr of technician time comes in just under $500. The actual 'hours rating' on the cell puts it around 4 years of usage, vs the ACE cell which I believe is rated right around 16-20 months as far as 'hours rating' (going off memory, but I have all the #'s at the office). Again just another option, I don't jump up on a hot tub and scream to the high heavens that everyone and their brother needs to buy a salt system or they are foolish, we simply educate/inform/give all the potential costs and let the customer make that decision for themselves.
probably more info than anyone cares to know, but once I start rambling...lol
Good Luck!
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Talked with the BF dealer and they do not touch salt systems...said they prefer the ozone system instead. Not sure they understand the difference
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The pros are you use less chemical, less frequent water changes, the water is soft with no chemical smell. It automatically creates bromine (when the spa is cycling) and you do not have to add it. You also do not have to shock. There is an informational YouTube video on it if you're interested. Those are the pros. There is also a concern about salt and its corrosiveness. You will find all sorts of differing opinions on that from dealers to owners.
I will respectfully disagree with using less chemicals and less frequent water changes. The bromine salt systems I have seen smell more than a properly used non salt chlorine system.
And as far as corrosives I see it as these systems add chlorine/bromine even when it is not needed. Versus adding product and allowing it's dissipation so your next soak is in very low levels of sanitizer. If you need sanitizer for a couple hours to kill nasties why introduce it for 24 hours?
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So in your experience you would not recommend a salt system? The pros I listed were from the makers, specific Blu Fusion bromine generator. You make a good point of sanitizing the water when it is not needed.
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The pros are you use less chemical, less frequent water changes, the water is soft with no chemical smell. It automatically creates bromine (when the spa is cycling) and you do not have to add it. You also do not have to shock. There is an informational YouTube video on it if you're interested. Those are the pros. There is also a concern about salt and its corrosiveness. You will find all sorts of differing opinions on that from dealers to owners.
I will respectfully disagree with using less chemicals and less frequent water changes. The bromine salt systems I have seen smell more than a properly used non salt chlorine system.
And as far as corrosives I see it as these systems add chlorine/bromine even when it is not needed. Versus adding product and allowing it's dissipation so your next soak is in very low levels of sanitizer. If you need sanitizer for a couple hours to kill nasties why introduce it for 24 hours?
I don't agree, full families that are regular users have water lasting 8-9 months (just sold supplies to a family that went 11 months before it "turned" on them) vs 4-5 months MAX on a traditional system...there is also 0 smell, I have a saltwater tub in the showroom at 3.5 ppm Bromine right now, can't smell anything even if you literally stick your nose 1" above the water. Also you are not introducing Sanitizer constantly 24 hours per day, you set it/its works based on # of filtration hours and the system itself also has an output # so you can literally dial it in and tell the system if you want 1 ppm, 3 ppm or 7 ppm of Bromine in your water. Slick little system imo, not for everyone, but the people who have it do enjoy the less maintenance and not having to use bromine floaters, stinky chlorine tablets, etc.
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I'm interested in finding out if anyone here is using this on a Marquis spa. If so, how do you go about finding a professional to install it? Also, let me know if this could void the manufacturers warranty.
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The pros are you use less chemical, less frequent water changes, the water is soft with no chemical smell. It automatically creates bromine (when the spa is cycling) and you do not have to add it. You also do not have to shock. There is an informational YouTube video on it if you're interested. Those are the pros. There is also a concern about salt and its corrosiveness. You will find all sorts of differing opinions on that from dealers to owners.
I will respectfully disagree with using less chemicals and less frequent water changes. The bromine salt systems I have seen smell more than a properly used non salt chlorine system.
And as far as corrosives I see it as these systems add chlorine/bromine even when it is not needed. Versus adding product and allowing it's dissipation so your next soak is in very low levels of sanitizer. If you need sanitizer for a couple hours to kill nasties why introduce it for 24 hours?
I don't agree, full families that are regular users have water lasting 8-9 months (just sold supplies to a family that went 11 months before it "turned" on them) vs 4-5 months MAX on a traditional system...there is also 0 smell, I have a saltwater tub in the showroom at 3.5 ppm Bromine right now, can't smell anything even if you literally stick your nose 1" above the water. Also you are not introducing Sanitizer constantly 24 hours per day, you set it/its works based on # of filtration hours and the system itself also has an output # so you can literally dial it in and tell the system if you want 1 ppm, 3 ppm or 7 ppm of Bromine in your water. Slick little system imo, not for everyone, but the people who have it do enjoy the less maintenance and not having to use bromine floaters, stinky chlorine tablets, etc.
I wasn't talking about bromine floaters or chlorine tablets as the least stinky method. I was talking about dichlor and bleach. When used properly the chlorine level when you soak is below 1PPM. And you have driven it up to 5-7 PPM after you soak. 7ppm and 3ppm of bromine or chlorine is smelly. And 1ppm isn't enough after your soak. Hence my disagreement about your assessment.
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What I find interesting and I have an honest question to the pros out there: These salt systems cost $X to install, but what does it cost to replace in 5 years or so when the cell dies? From my knowledge it seems its pretty expensive on both ends, but I could totally be wrong.
My thing is: Why is the hot tub industry trying to be like the pool industry, when the hot tub industry has so many more options that have most or all of the qualities of a salt system but w/o the cost downsides?
I ask this as a person with 17yrs exp. in both pool and hot tub water chemistry, without an agenda, and with an honest intention to learn.
I dont personally like the "salt" systems that are Sodium-Bromide but I get the sales side of it, and the honest and actual benefits. But I now work for a manufacturer that offers them and I am trying to see if anyone has a deeper, more nuanced vein of knowledge I can draw from. B/C as of now- I cannot justify the added cost, the cost for replacement, the fact that salt systems are pretty much first gen, and none are really like a pool's salt system.
Thus I invite further discussion please to gain education on the matter.
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What I've been told recently is a salt system is gonna cost about 1k ish. And they last maybe 2-4 years then it's another $800-900 to replace the cell. So in the 1st 4 years of owning a tub I'm in for about 2k.
I owned my last tub for about 15 years. Pretty certain I didn't spend anywhere close to 2k in 15 years. Probably not even 1k.
I'm sure it has its benefits....for me I get lazy and sometimes don't go in or out to the tub for weeks on end. This would definitely help. But I think there are better ways.